The True Order of Prayer

GardenRoomMuralI’m not sure if I can write the things I feel in my heart right now. I am simply overwhelmed with emotion. I’ve asked the Lord’s permission to share this and He said yes. It’s a sacred experience to me. I hope the spirit bears witness. I’ll give you a little bit of background first, share what the Lord allows me and conclude tomorrow with what He asked me to write on a different subject.

A Forty-Year Search

On Sunday, I culminated a forty-year search for understanding of The True Order of Prayer. Yes, I was seventeen when I first learned about this, even before I was endowed. You see, my parents were both incredibly active in Temple service. Mother’s life work was to do her family history. I have her patriarchal blessing where it’s stated it was her calling and election. She made it sure.

My Mother’s Calling and Election

Before she died, mother published multiple books of family history, genealogy and research on some 25,000 ancestors. She and my father personally did most of the ordinances for them in the Los Angeles temple. I was blessed to do hundreds, perhaps thousands of those names as well. I only last year gave up the last 250 names to the temple to be done. I need to dig up more names.

A Mother’s Love for the Temple

I feel mother’s spirit with me now as I write this. She was with me the day I was endowed. She was so thrilled to look over at me sitting there in the Garden room as I sat next to my dad. We did two sessions that day just to be sure I understood what I was getting into. Trust me, because of her teachings and example, I understood it and loved it. She prepared me in so many ways.

Prepared For the Temple Endowment

I grew up feeling very comfortable with the concepts of the temple. Mother shared many things with me that perhaps she shouldn’t have, but I can say she didn’t break any covenants as she did. She taught me to love the temple. She gave me copies of published and unpublished talks about the temple long before I was endowed. We discussed what went on in the temple many times.

We Can Talk About the Temple

I am going to say something that may be bothersome to you. I disagree with the way the church has ingrained it into our minds that we can’t talk about the temple except in the temple. I have sat in many Gospel Doctrine and High Priest Group Meetings where even long-time temple workers were hesitant to say anything of detail even when the lesson was specifically about the temple.

The Internet Changed Everything

Well, the Internet has changed everything. Everyone knows you can find multiple copies of the entire temple ceremony online at various sites. Tell me you haven’t Googled it yourself and saved a copy on your local drive for study and comparison between the new films, the 1990 version and the various pre-1990 versions out there. I was endowed in the good old days – 1976.

Brigham Young taught the following:

There are four penal signs and four penal tokens and should I want to address the throne to enquire after Ancient things which transpired on planets that rolled away before this planet came into existence I should use my new name which is ancient and referred to ancient things. Should I wish to enquire for present things I should use my own name which refers to present things and should I want to enquire for future things I would use the third name which refers to the first token of the Melchizedek priesthood or is the third token that is given and refers to the Son.

Original Source: Seventies Record, Book B, 28 Dec. 1845, LDS archives, typed copy.  Online Source:  Click here for one. There are at least five other online sources for this quote. It is not a secret.

Your Home Should be a Temple

I have already thanked the individual who gave me the final key to making the true order of prayer work for me in my own home. Yes, you can use what you learn in the temple in your own home. Please, tell me why we’re taught about it if we’re not to use it ourselves to rend the veil and converse with the Lord? I’m sharing this in an open public forum with the Lord’s permission.

Treat the Temple With Respect

Now the church may not agree with what I’m about to share. I may get another one of those calls to come see the Bishop. So be it. I’ve made up my mind that when the Lord asks me to share something, I’m going to do as He asks, come what may. I am very familiar with the handbooks. I know what the policies are about treating the things of the temple with respect. I am doing so.

Dedicate your Altar to the Lord

First, dedicate your home if you haven’t already done so. Then, dedicate a specific location or object or area in your home to serve as your altar. I know some people have built altars for their homes. The reason you must dedicate the altar to the Lord is because it will be used to open a conduit. If it’s not dedicated to the Lord, the adversary will use it. Remember, it opens a portal to heaven.

Offer Up The Signs

Next, offer up the signs of the priesthood as you have been taught. Make sure you are standing as you do so. Face the greatest source of light or the temple. I face SSE to the LA Temple. That’s nice because it’s also the direction of the rising sun. I perform this ordinance out loud. When done, kneel down, follow Brigham’s instructions above in which sign you use and pray out loud.

Opening the Portal

Now, don’t expect the portal to open immediately. In my experience, it opened outward first, meaning, I knew my prayer was reaching the heavens. I knew it was being heard and recorded. Also don’t expect an answer right away. Be content with the peace and joy that fills your soul as you worship the Lord in your own home, which can and should be more sacred than the temple.

Fasting Gives it More Power

For me, the response back came the next day – Monday. By the way, since Sunday was a Fast Sunday for our stake, I was fasting for several things. I was fasting for one of my home teaching families as we gave the father another priesthood blessing. I was also fasting for a conversation I had scheduled with one of my readers. It is he who gave me the final key I needed – stand up.

This is Serious Stuff – It Works

By that I mean stand up when you offer the signs to the Lord. Then kneel down to pray using the sign and name you desire as instructed by Brigham Young above. I had been doing it wrong for so many years because I was not standing when offering the signs. I had also not dedicated my altar to the Lord. Because of that Satan had sent visitors through the portal who tormented me.

My Testimony and Witness

OK. I’ve taught you – now for my testimony and witness. I now know for myself this works. I asked something specific of the Lord yesterday and this morning, he answered me with distinct clarity of what I should do and write for my next blog post. There is no doubt this works. I used the second sign as I prayed. I have received inspiration all my life, but this was powerful.

My Calling and Election

In other words, I can now say the Lord asked me to do something specific. I have an assignment from the Lord. I have a calling. I know what it is. It was confirmed to me this evening. It is also my election, meaning it is what I choose to do, come what may. The Lord has asked it of me and I will do it. I am rejoicing because of the power with which it came to me this evening in prayer.

Now I Know For Myself

Please don’t leave a comment telling me I’ve violated my covenants. I haven’t. Please don’t leave me a comment telling me to take this page down. I won’t. Things have changed now. I know what my mission is. This is my calling and election. I intend to make it sure. It is fulfillment of my patriarchal blessing. I have wondered about certain things in there for years. Now I know. Now I know.

We’re on Each Other’s Team

I’m kind of over getting told to throw my hands up in the air
So there
I’m kinda older than I was when I revelled without a care
So there

And you know, we’re on each other’s team
We’re on each other’s team
And you know, we’re on each other’s team
We’re on each other’s team
And you know, and you know, and you know

Update (9:20pm 4-1-14)

Because so many people have asked for additional detail, I’ve included a response to one reader in the comments below. It’s rather lengthy but I simply can’t answer all the emails I have received, so I’m answering them in this way. I’m overwhelmed by the response and thank everyone for the emails. I express my love for each of you and pray the Lord’s blessing on us all that we’ll be prepared for what’s happening in the church today.

106 thoughts on “The True Order of Prayer”

  1. I have never heard of this! I’m a mother of almost 5 children in my early 30’s raised in the church. I’m stunned! and as with many other things I’m learning as completely knew…..I must ponder about this. The GA’s always say make your home like the temple. That your home is a sacred place like the temple. So this makes a lot of sense. As usual to latley I’m saddened by what I didn’t know I didn’t know as a neive blinded member. Thank you for this post. I’m really blown away….

    1. Hello Church Mum, Please, please, please use the brethren and official LDS books for your guidelines – not an individual. He has no right to revelation for the general church. He has absolutely no need to perform a prayer circle in his home. People have been raised from the dead through Priesthood ministrations – God works through prayer and faith. If we had no need for Holy temples, the Prophet of God would inform us.
      Prayer and meditation while studying the scriptures are all we need to commune with our Father in Heaven through His Son, Jesus Christ. That has always been good enough for the Lord’s prophets.

  2. Tim,
    This is what I wrote to you in response to your post a couple days ago titled “Investigating Alternative Viewpoints.” I chose to be much more indirect with what I wrote. I’m glad to see you have figured it out. I also find that I don’t need to go through the physical actions as you described, though I’m sure it’s effective. The approach can be spiritually performed. “The temple ceremony brings us to the veil and then shows us how to rend it to receive specific blessings. The true order of prayer is a part of that. Have you considered what the other parts are? Why do we learn all those things taught within the ceremony? All things taught therein culminate in the exercising of them at the veil. This is a very private spiritual matter that need not be confined to practice in public only within the temple, but also does not need to be rehearsed physically as we are taught. Remember, the things we are taught are symbols. The spirit can communicate with no physical words or actions being muttered.”

  3. Tim, I knew you were going to get there! You are already helping others, and will help even more. I will eagerly await your next post. Congratulations! Nice!

  4. Tim, I have read many of your posts and the way in which your words flow changed with this one. It is a testament to me that you are speaking with the tongue of an angel. Thank you!

  5. Thank you for posting this! Personally, I have long believed the TOP was not only possible and accepted by the Lord to do in our own homes, but that it was in fact taught in the ‘early days’. I have just never known quite how to do it, and have been worried about crossing a line. I hadn’t thought of dedicating an altar. It makes perfect sense. I wish I were alive when the endowment was 8 hours long. I can’t imagine the learning that must have taken place. I realize with the growth of the church the impossible task of teaching members all these things. Frankly, I don’t think most members care. But those who do, and seek these things should not be scrutinized for righteous desires.

    I don’t know where the notion came from that we shouldn’t talk about some of the things that happen inside the temple. Aside from the endowment texts available on the internet, there are countless other sources that teach about what these symbols mean. Most of the ones I have read come from journal entries and meeting minutes. My favorite one being JOSEPH SMITH’S QUORUM OF THE ANOINTED, 1842-1845 . The only thing(s) we covenant to not reveal in the temple are the key words, signs and tokens themselves.

    It makes no sense to be ‘taught from on high’ and never use what is learned. It is contrary to the nature of learning. We won’t receive more until we put into practice what has already been learned.

    I was also stuck initially by your mention of 40. 40 years. That just makes me think. Not to compare you to Denver Snuffer, but he mentions 40 years also. Jesus was tempted 40 days. Elijah and 40 days in Horeb, the rain during the Flood and Noah lasting 40 days. Moses on the mount 40 days, and the Israelites wandering 40 years. Perhaps it is all co-incidental, but it still caused me to pause.

    Thank you for following the promptings of the Spirit. God is the only one to whom we owe our loyalties. I have done things in my life according to the Spirit that may seem unorthodox or go against the teachings of God, but whatever God requires is right. God bless you, Tim, along that path that will lead you Home.

  6. Tim, thank you! Your post has answered a prayer for me, and the spirit has testified of that you have spoken truth. The Lord will bless you for your obedience to Him.

  7. Tim,

    Thank you for doing what the Lord asked you to do. He is the most important voice we are to heed.


  8. I am a widow. I would love to be able to have these wonderful things you have shared in my home. Not sure how without a Priesthood in my home. Thank you for opening up new understandings for me to ponder and pray about.

    1. You don’t need “priesthood” to do this, in my opinion. It would be great to have a couple praying like this, but if there is only a single person, I think heaven would still open up whether that individual was man, woman, or child.

      1. I want to second Toni’s point. The True Order of Prayer does not require priesthood. It requires faith in Jesus Christ and a desire to be taught. Heaven will and does open to women just as it will for men.

      2. To be sure of the message here… is the distinction being made that we need to be endowed, but women would not need a priesthood holder ‘present’ while calling upon God in the TOP?

        This is what I am understanding.

      3. Additionally… My confusion comes with the inclusion of “child”. If a child can do it then why would signs need to be used? If we do not need to be endowed then aren’t we back to prayer as usual?

      4. Someone in the circle must have the keywords, signs and tokens, so there must be an endowed individual at the family altar. Someone shared with me, just last night, a wonderful resource entitled The Home Sanctuary: Temple of the Family Kingdom by R. Craig Mills, 1996.

        I read most of it last night but will take another look this evening to see what it says about children participating in family prayer circles where the signs of the priesthood are used. My probable answer is no. They have not been endowed. They must wait to participate in these kinds of circles until they have received their own endowment.

        That’s Tim’s opinion. Anyone else?

      5. I said “child” because when Jesus came to the Nephites, He essentially had a prayer circle with the children. It was what we would consider a temple ordinance. The adults did not have the faith to understand. Apparently, the children were more able to accept such a thing.

        Whether signs and such were used in that case, I don’t know. The record does not give us such details.

        In any case, the result was the opening of the heavens and the ministration of angels.

    2. Nathan Shackelford

      You have priesthood!

      Here is one key … reclaim what you have experienced as you have read what Tim shared and EXPERIMENT upon the word 🙂 He stands at the door knocking … will you answer?

  9. “Now I know. ”

    What joy fills my heart to hear you proclaim these words, Tim!

    I would imagine that everything you’ve been through to receive this knowledge is worth the price you have paid.

    Denver relates what a heavy price that is, though, “I did not have any idea the difficulties and sacrifices involved in trading faith for knowledge. If I had known then, I would perhaps have stayed content with belief. ” (The Second Comforter, p. 100)


    Thank God he was not content, nor have you been, Tim, with mere belief.

    Now you have knowledge. So, what’s next? I would commend to you and all of us, the words of Oliver Cowdery:

    “Never cease striving until you have seen God face to face. Strengthen your faith; cast off your doubts, your sins, and all your unbelief; and nothing can prevent you from coming to God. Your ordination is not full and complete till God has laid His hand upon you. We require as much to qualify us as did those who have gone before us; God is the same. If the Savior in former days laid His hands upon His disciples, why not in latter days? ” (DHC 2:196)

    (I believe this invitation applies to women as well as men. )

    I look forward to your report in this regard, as allowed, Tim. You are well on your way and your friends rejoice in this journey together with you!

    Praise God!

  10. I second what Mark posted this morning: the things you’re describing can be done spiritually, as well. I found it deeply interesting that as I’ve spent time in worship, I’ve been prompted to hold my arms in certain arrangements, which has brought the temple signs to mind. I usually experience an open heaven during worship, with or without that, so I hadn’t made a connection before. Curious. I think it’s wonderful that the physical actions of the true order of prayer affect our spirits such that they tutor us in opening heaven and being able to communicate more clearly and effectively with our God.

    I’m also in complete agreement that the tradition of never speaking of anything from the temple outside of its walls is a tragic loss. I first attended the temple more than fifteen years ago. I’ve learned more about the temple in the last two months in discussions I’ve had online (again, not violating any covenants) than I did in the entire decade and a half before.

    I honestly feel as though I’ve been robbed of years of learning, of insights and strength I could’ve gained, had I realized I was able to discuss what I’d learned. Fifteen years is a long time, and I’ve missed thousands of hours of discussion with my husband and friends as I’ve driven to and from the temple (a 90 minute trip), spent time talking together in the evenings, etc.

    We humans don’t learn best in a vacuum–we learn through interactions, connections with others. (Why else would we all be here on earth, together, for this mortal test? If we didn’t need others to learn, then we could just do this whole thing solo.)

    I hope more church members will realize the opportunity they’re passing by.

    1. Annalea, it is possible to discuss matters in the holy temple 🙂 there are study rooms and corridors with chairs. Please do not take what one person says as the word of God. If what this person says is true, we would have been informed by the Prophet of God.

  11. Tim, this is marvelous. I am grateful for it. I have been pondering this very topic for the last few months. Thank you for your candor!

  12. Tim,

    I too am curious about dedicating these things without holding the priesthood. My husband is not there yet. He’s coming around with the priesthood but doing these things would be too much for him right now. It will be an interesting topic to bring up with him that’s for sure. ?

    While we are speaking of the temple…I’ve always wondered the reason we veil our faces. The only answer I’ve gotten is its a sign of respect. I know there is way more to it. Anyone? If it crosses the line to tell me I’m fine with that too. I’m sure I’ll figure it out sooner or later.

    1. Yeah there are several reasons why we veil our faces! I can think of two off the top of my head but I’m sure there is one more I’m forgetting. 1. We do it because we, as women, are like the veil that the children of God come to the earth through. Christ is veiled, and it is not because we are showing respect for Him, it is because we come through Him to Get to the Father. He is the only way to do this, women are the only way we get to this earth. We act as Saviors on Mt Zion in saving the souls of men and women by bringing them into the world. 2. The other reason is much deeper and it will take time and much pondering to receive. It has to do with knowing your spouse. It is not an easy thing to do, to know those you stand in the circle with and who you hold the priesthood with. You must ask this question for yourself. Good luck.

      1. Oh my goodness! Thank you! Wow! I’m even more excited about my worth after that! May God bless you. I’ve wanted to know that for years.

      2. There is also the Jewish aspect, because our tradition comes through them. The reason to veil has to do with the Shekhinah, which you can research at your leisure.

  13. Thank you for this blog Tim and again bringing it to my attention. I’ve resisted (and put on hold) doing what you’ve done because of President Kimball’s letter on the topic. I’m going to again prayerfully reconsider. BTW, in my mind there is a difference between the TOP and the OP as currently taught. Thank you again. I am glad for you. 🙂

  14. There is no doubt things have changed for me with this experience as I closed my fast on Sunday evening. I cannot begin to describe the feeling of knowing with an absolute knowledge there is a portal or doorway open to the spirit world when I prayed after offering up the signs and then kneeling. There was no trepidation. There was no fear, only an envelopment of love and the spirit so profound it caused my whole body to shake or vibrate. I guess that’s because I‘m not used to such power. I have felt the Lord’s love many times before and one time in particular that was a “born of the spirit” experience for me while at Ricks College forty years ago. I stand all amazed at the love he offers me and has offered me all my life.

    I will answer your questions directly. I did not wear the robes of the priesthood, although I could have done so. I did not feel it was necessary. Maybe I’m wrong. I am now emboldened enough to try it next time if the Lord so inspires me. Perhaps the experience would be different had I been wearing the robes of the priesthood. No, I didn’t use the instruction dialog associated with the prayer circle. I simply stood, offered each of the four signs, one by one, silently and solemnly, but let the names of the signs pass through my mind. I did, however, repeat the phrase out loud Adam used at the altar as he, and I, offered the fourth sign. I knelt, made the second sign and began to pray aloud. I think I started it something like this: “O Lord, I call upon thee in the true order of prayer with a specific desire and request to ask of thee for my own welfare and salvation.” I then paused, expectantly, wondering.

    I immediately felt something I have difficulty describing, but have felt before so I recognized it immediately. The best way I can describe it is similar to what I wrote in the post. I sensed a door, or rather a portal opening, and the presence of a recorder. Yes, that’s the best way to describe it. It just came to me as I was writing it now. There was no doubt that someone was there with me. I’m not saying it was the Lord. I don’t believe it was. I sensed the presence of an angel expectantly waiting to record my prayer. I knew it was being recorded. I don’t know how I knew other than I saw the angel in my mind’s eye and felt his presence. He was a holy being, and I had the impression it was someone I knew, either my guardian angel or one of my ancestors. I did not feel rushed or that the angel was waiting impatiently, just expectantly, almost as if this was something he did every day.

    I did not waste his time. I thanked my Father for the tender mercies of the Lord throughout my life, acknowledged my love for him, made my request known, thanked my Father again and closed my prayer. I would say it was less than five minutes. I spoke slowly but with a sense of power I don’t normally feel. Sometimes in prayer I’m not prepared. My mind will wander from thought to thought, get distracted and then I sheepishly come back, apologize to the Lord and try to continue with what I was praying about. Usually, and I hate to admit this because it smacks of vain repetitions, I report on my day’s work activities, my interactions with my wife and others, think if I have offended anyone and ask forgiveness. I can be short with salespeople on the phone sometimes. In fact, I’ve often hung up on them. The Lord has made it clear to me this is not pleasing, even if they are calling from India.

    Oh, sorry, I’m rambling. Back to the prayer. It was not an emotional experience until I “hung up” and said Amen. At that moment, I was overcome and enveloped in the comfort of the spirit as strong as any spiritual encounter in my life. I judge all my prayers by two sacred early prayers in my life at age 17 where I fasted and pled with the Lord for forgiveness of my youthful sins. I’ve related before, I had what many would call the “born of the spirit” experience at Rick’s College. If I haven’t shared it before, you can read about it in the embedded links I just included. In that experience I felt an overwhelming manifestation of the Savior’s love for me and a sure knowledge of his forgiveness. During Sunday’s prayer I was at perfect peace, felt great confidence and solemnity. I performed my task. What I felt at the conclusion was a complete enrapture in the Holy Spirit to the point of being overcome.

    I had the same experience repeated at the conclusion of last night’s prayer (Monday night). No, I did not use the true order of prayer then. The Lord gave me an assignment Monday morning as I was driving to work. It was in answer to my prayer of the night before – the Sunday night prayer using the True Order of Prayer. Images, words and phrases flowed into my mind while Eastbound on the 118 at 65 mph. It was clear as could be. Apparently the angel who recorded my prayer took it to the Lord, got the answer to my request and then returned to deliver the message. My request was approved. In Monday night’s prayer I reported back to the Lord I had received the message from the angel that morning, acknowledged that I would do as He (the Lord) requested and was once again immediately enveloped in the spirit to the point of being emotionally overcome for ten minutes.

    Thanks for asking me for more details. This process of analyzing my first experience of a successful execution of the True Order of Prayer in my home has been most helpful. I’m writing this for my journal as I share this with you. To finish answering your last two questions, I don’t know about asking for something in the past or the future. I haven’t tried that yet. This was specifically for me, my present calling and election and what the Lord expected of me to make it sure. I have a better understanding of Calling and Election now than I have ever had in my life. It really is simple. We were ordained to perform a specific work before we came here. It is up to us to discover what that “calling” is. I know what mine is and at this point I do not have the Lord’s permission to share it. It is my election. I proved to the Lord I wanted it when I passed the test he asked of me last month (abruptly resigning my job).

    As far as question four, I don’t think Carol has even read my post. Before she went visiting teaching today – imagine that, going visiting teaching on the first of the month – she told me how much she was struggling with finding the time to do all the things she wants to do with marketing her book and finishing her next one. I gave her some counsel that I’m not sure she liked and offered to give her a priesthood blessing. She came back after three hours (three different sisters visited in one day) and seemed tired but content. I asked her if she still wanted the blessing. She said she was pondering it. I hope to read her my blog post to see how she responds. She knows I had something special happen to me Sunday but doesn’t know what. I’ve tried to share but only when she’s ready and the Lord prompts me. I hate to say it, but unless she asks…well, enough said. We have different missions in life.

    I hope this helps. Thanks again for your email. I’ve worked on this response all day in between work and many other emails from readers. It was a pleasure to document the process and recognize now how close I have been on previous occasions. I now know how it is to be used. It is for obtaining an errand or permission to do something and for reporting back. There is so much that was “downloaded” into my spirit that it will take years to do all the things the Lord showed me both Sunday night and Monday night. You are right. The Lord promised to heal me, showed me how it would be accomplished and then told me what my mission in life was to be. It is a confirmation of something I’ve been trying to get the Lord’s endorsement on for years. Now I know. Now I know. I know where I fit in what is about to unfold in the very near future. I know my calling and election. Now I need to make it sure.

  15. The comments have been very helpful, especially Mark’s–as moved as I was after reading the post, I found I was skeptical of the idea that lacking a certain posture or movement is what is keeping us out of heaven. It felt too much like magic, and made me feel a bit tricked, that maybe the reason I haven’t gotten clear answers to my prayers recently is that I didn’t stand or make the right sign. However, I can wholeheartedly get behind what Mark said about spiritually rehearsing.

  16. I am so pleased that you chose to talk about this. I can add my testimony to yours. I have discovered a year or so ago of the power of the TOP. I have been blessed beyond measure as I have engaged in it in much the same way you have ( although I often wear my robes when the circumstances permit) It is tragic that our leaders discourage ( or more accurately forbid) its use outside the temple. That prohibition is another step in severing our links to the eternities.

  17. Tim,

    I have been waiting for this information for a couple of months. I posed some questions which could not come to fruit due to distance. My ears perked up quite a bit when I read your post “Investigating Alternative Viewpoints.” Great followup in this post… thanks. I’m going on vacation in a couple of months and I want to discuss this with my friend in a more private setting. I have already sent him a link privately to your post.

    (Hey buddy,… you reading this?) LOL. My friend made the comment that a husband and wife praying in unity will produce greater spiritual power than any other configuration… (to be short).

    BTW… Did you build the alter you used? Can you share a few points on this?

    I am somewhat aprehensive though. The ‘committee’. Surely this will stir things up and causes me to ask… is there a book comming on this subject? Put me down for a copy. Perhaps since your in IT you can get away with a “How To”. 😉

    1. Ah!… Somehow I missed completing the though that “I posed some questions to a friend about this basic topic… hard to do over great distances though.”

  18. Tim, thank you for sharing the details of your prayer, it gives me great peace to know the LORD knows and loves li’l ol’ Tim in California USA. I am beginning to learn how to feel his love and your example is heartening. I told the Stake President I was not correlated…he kept my and my wife’s recommends until I return and tell him I am correlated and “perfectly aligned with the brethren.” My wife told me to find a new church. I prayed this morning…literally giving my pain and heartache to the Savior Jesus Christ. Forgiving the guardian of the institution for harming my sweet innocent wife who did nothing to deserve this. I sung the hymn “In humility” with great spiritual intention “Fill my heart with sweet forgiving, teach me tolerance and love…Let my prayers find access to thee, in the thy holy courts above…Then when I have proven worthy of thy sacrifice divine…Lord, let me regain thy presence, Let thy glory round me shine…”
    I cried driving to work, the Holy Spirit strongly witnessing to me that I was a different man today than I was yesterday, I was stepping into a new live in faith and courage, and then feelings or peace came so strongly that in the LORD it will be Ok.
    I thank you for your courage Tim. I pray they leave your wife out of your forthcoming censure; she will be affected significantly regardless. Shalom

    1. Lynn, I am deeply touched by what you shared. That phrase is troublesome every time I hear it – “perfectly aligned with the Brethren.” There’s just something wrong with that. It is so contrary to what the Brethren used to teach us. It is not what the Lord wants. I know this.

      I can show you quote after quote where our Prophets and Apostles have said exactly the opposite – that we must not believe or do ONLY what the Brethren “allow” unless the Lord bears witness to us that it is the right thing for us at this time in our lives. Agency is the key here.

      As I wrote at the end of the post, things have changed with me. Up until Sunday night I was willing to give up my blog if asked or required. Now that I have the Lord’s endorsement, I feel I cannot remove it without his permission. It is a part of my calling and election.

      Several of the private emails I’ve received since I posted about my experience have indicated there will surely be displeasure expressed or that censure will probably be required of me by my brethren in the Stake Presidency and the High Council with whom I serve and love. From years of attending such councils, I know how important it is to be submissive.

      I can only think that the Lord has prepared me for this eventuality with 25 years of serving in leadership positions. If I had shared such an experience earlier in my life, I don’t think I would have been prepared. Now I feel I am and do not think it will be an unpleasant experience even if the end result is mandated by Elder Maynes or someone in the Twelve.

      It was not my intention to offend, and yes, I specifically asked the Lord for permission to share this. I was overjoyed when he said yes. If I am called in to explain myself or if they convene a counsel, I will be submissive and respectful.

      I’m no Denver Snuffer, but if given the opportunity to defend what I’ve done, I will teach what I’m allowed by the Lord and if the Stake President consents, but will probably respond thusly if asked to remove the post or the blog:

      “President, you know I love you and don’t want to cause you any difficulties. If this request is coming from Salt Lake, I can only respond as follows: I asked for and received permission from the Lord to post what I did. It is sacred to me and part of an agreement with the Lord.

      “I don’t feel I can remove it unless I again ask the Lord’s counsel. If you feel it appropriate, I’m willing to kneel here and now to do so. If not, please allow me to do so at my home altar where I received this from the Lord in the first place.”

      1. Denver Snuffer may have seen Jesus Christ already and in some areas may be further along the path than you but you are as important as him. You may not be Denver Snuffer but you are Tim Malone and that is what matters.

        BTW: In your post you mentioned that you had something that God wants you to post that you would post the next day, as it is now 2 days further and there is still no post I am hoping it will come later today. Let us know if it is going to take longer.

  19. TIm, you mentioned another post about a different topic coming soon, that wasn’t the update in the comments was it?

    1. Ah, yes Sean. There is more. I have been trying to get it written over the last two days. There is always work to do, including the work I owe my employer. I continue to be overwhelmed by personal emails and don’t feel in my heart I can ignore them. I can see it won’t get published tonight as I intended when I sat down at the computer several hours ago. The goal is to complete it tomorrow and get it posted.

      Thanks for asking and for reading my blog. I had no idea this post would get the response it has received. I am grateful beyond measure. So many people have sent me their material on the subject and have shared their own sacred experiences with parting the veil through the True Order of Prayer in their own homes. Why, oh why is this not taught more openly and plainly in our church? It dismays me.

  20. Can you explain the Snuffer quote: I’m kind of over getting told to throw my hands up in the air So there.

    You have reminded me of some things I have known for years but have not practice. I accept your call to repentance. Thanks

    1. Lizzie Nelson

      Bill, maybe Snuffer was being a bit cheeky. If you click on that quote in his blog, you will see that that line is from a song by Lorde, that he quoted. It’s kind of humorous, really. A guy asks him about sustaining leaders, and here is a popular song by “Lorde” so he quips, the Lorde recently said, “I’m kind of over getting told to throw my hands up in the air, So there.

      Whether he really meant it or not, you’ll have to decide for yourself. It’s kind of hilarious that the artist in the song is Lorde. So he could say, the Lorde recently said.

      For the next enlightening comment, I quote paperface on the LDSFF who added:

      “The line in question (that Denver points to) is a reference to the common lyrical call and response in hip hop music to “throw your hands up in the air” where an MC leads a crowd in dancing with their hands up. For a teenage girl to say that she’s over it is for her to say that she’s past the conceit of following orders in the name of worshiping the MC in question, because the music business has become a means for myth-building for the purpose of extracting wealth from the public. I.E., she wants something sincere and real.”

      The whole thing is quite interesting indeed and the advent of the song, probably serendipitous.

      1. Lizzie Nelson

        Hmmm, I wonder if I meant synchronistic instead of serendipitous….? Or maybe both.

      2. In reading the rest of the lyrics to that song, one might wonder what other ‘hidden’ messages Denver may be conveying……

      3. Nathan Shackelford


        Wait ’til you’re announced
        We’ve not yet lost all our graces
        The hounds will stay in chains
        Look upon your greatness
        That you’ll send the call out
        (Send the call out [15x])

        Call all the ladies out
        They’re in their finery
        A hundred jewels on throats
        A hundred jewels between teeth
        Now bring my boys in
        Their skin in craters like the moon
        The moon we love like a brother, while he glows through the room

        Dancin’ around the lies we tell
        Dancin’ around big eyes as well
        Even the comatose they don’t dance and tell

        We live in cities you’ll never see on screen
        Not very pretty, but we sure know how to run things
        Living in ruins of a palace within my dreams
        And you know, we’re on each other’s team

        I’m kind of over getting told to throw my hands up in the air, so there
        So all the cups got broke shards beneath our feet but it wasn’t my fault
        And everyone’s competing for a love they won’t receive
        ‘Cause what this palace wants is release

        We live in cities you’ll never see on screen
        Not very pretty, but we sure know how to run things
        Living in ruins of a palace within my dreams
        And you know, we’re on each other’s team

        I’m kind of over getting told to throw my hands up in the air
        So there
        I’m kinda older than I was when I revelled without a care
        So there

        We live in cities you’ll never see on screen
        Not very pretty, but we sure know how to run things
        Living in ruins of a palace within my dreams
        And you know, we’re on each other’s team
        We’re on each other’s team
        And you know, we’re on each other’s team
        We’re on each other’s team
        And you know, and you know, and you know

    2. The comment about hands in the air was in response to a question about sustaining the Church leaders in the upcoming General Conference. Quote as follows from Denver’s Blog,
      “I was asked by a young fellow about sustaining leaders in the upcoming general conference. I replied, “the Lorde recently said: “I’m kind of over gettin’ told to throw my hands up in the air, So there.”

      1. Thanks Barkers. Always best to go directly to the source. I should have done so. “The Lorde said to me the other day…”

        That’s no typo. Lorde is the name of the artist. Fits, doesn’t it?

  21. Tim, et al,

    I went to the temple today. I try to go once a week. I felt the Spirit and enjoyed serving the Lord.

    I’m looking forward to General Conference this weekend. I plan on fasting on Sunday. For the last few years I’ve fasted on General Conference Sunday.

    I’ve been praying for those who will speak. I pray that they will be inspired and provide the counsel and teachings that church members need, especially those things I need to hear.

    Not to draw attention to myself, but to make a point, I’ve attended every General Conference since my mission (1971) either in person or by watching remotely on TV or at a chapel. This includes those years when conference included Friday meetings.

    I love and sustain the Lord’s spokesman. I don’t always agree with everything they say, but that doesn’t mean I don’t sustain them. I’ve made it a rule not to criticize them to others. I don’t want to be the means of causing others to lose faith.

    The Lord has been very kind to me and I don’t want to stand before Him some day and be asked why I opposed His chosen leaders and stood with those who found fault with them.

    I’m looking forward to hearing from President Monson, our prophet. I hope everyone enjoys conference and can come away feeling uplifted and inspired.

    1. If your observances have brought you “to have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,” then you have set an example worth emulating.

    2. Hi Jared. I too am looking forward to general Conference this weekend. Carol and I have been praying for those who will speak all week. I like your plan to fast on Sunday. I love what you had to say about loving and sustaining those who lead this church. I feel the same way.

      Of course I especially look forward each conference to Elder Perry’s talk. I almost always email my sister and discuss it with her. He is over Public Affairs and is the perfect man for the job with his constant enthusiasm. It’s hard to believe he is the oldest apostle at 92.

      I hope President Monson is well enough to speak. He didn’t look too good at the Woman’s Broadcast last Saturday. I pray for those in the Twelve who are not well – President Monson, President Packer, Elder Scott and Elder Hales. It’s tough getting old and still having to work.

      May God bless us each this weekend to be uplifted and enlightened.

  22. I just came across your blog a few days ago, and I’m glad I’ve done so. I’ve been through several different blogs, and so far I like yours the most, in that you seem the most “on the level.” By that, I mean in your disagreements with some aspects of the Church, you don’t reject the most important things.

    I know all the necessary keys and authority for receiving salvation/exaltation are still with the Church. But I also think that there are many “Pharisees” in all levels and areas of the Church, and I hope they don’t overrun it. (I used to fully believe in the teaching that the Church would not be allowed to fall into a general apostasy again in these last days, but as I’ve become more familiar with the scriptures, I’ve found no such promise–though that doesn’t necessarily mean it WILL fall, either.) Anyway, it hasn’t happened yet.

    Thanks for sharing your insights and revelations, as well as your speculations. It sounds like you’ve been studying and ruminating over many of these things for years (especially this particular post). I’m only 26, so it almost feels like cheating just coming here and reading this much in a couple of days! Well, I’m sure that’ll happen to me in the future, in some way or another. I look forward to future posts!

    I’ve debated about making my own blog, but at the moment I am a terrible writer (in that it takes me forever to get anything down, whether it’s typing or handwriting) so I probably won’t yet. On the other hand, practice makes perfect.

    1. I just noticed there’s another “Mark” that has commented here, and on other recent posts. Consequently, I’ll add my last initial from here on out, so there is no confusion about who’s writing what.

  23. Chris Harrison

    During my adult life after going to the temple I had wondered about the true order of prayer and how it applied to me. I always dismissed it as, “Something we only do in the temple.” After reading your post I followed your counsel this morning and was granted a sweet taste of heavenly communion that I have never felt while praying. It didn’t last long but I am certain it came from realms that I yearn to know more intimately. My own journey has just begun and I believe your writings are relevant and I thank you for your honesty and example.

    1. Thanks Chris. May I add two things, not directed at you but just in general about my prayer experience. This has been a long journey, but has been more intense over the past two years. Anyone else who has followed this journey knows what I am about to share is true.

      You will not be brought into the presence of the Lord until you are tested by false messengers. Likewise, you will not receive true messengers until you offer obedience and sacrifice that shows the Lord you are serious about parting the veil and conversing with him.

      And I’m not talking about a generalized sort of sacrifice. As strongly as I know how to say it, I want you to know that you will be asked to do something that does not make sense. And yet you will absolutely know the request has come from the Lord. It is a test designed just for you.

      Second, you will never be the same afterwards. You can’t be. You are no longer in a state of believing, but a state of knowledge. It is subtle but powerful and will affect everything you do from that day forward. You will begin to walk with the Lord in a way never experienced before.

      The Lord will continue to make requests of you, accompanied by those powerful and intense feelings of love measured in the amount that you need it in order to be sure. You must respond to those requests and do as the Lord has revealed it to you. It is required to proceed to the veil.


        Wow wow Wow. No pap here. Only pure knowledge that greatly enlarges the soul without hypocrisy or guile.

  24. I am interested in what people are using for an altar. I tend to pray next to my bed facing the Salt Lake Temple / Sun-set. Would it be appropriate to use the bed as an altar? And if so, do I need to bless it for use as an altar at each session?

    Personally, I would prefer to have a proper altar, I am just not too sure where I could place it in my home.

    1. Antony, I have to laugh because, yes, my altar is my bed.

      Interestingly, I have noticed three things. First, when I pray on the usual side of my bed as I normally do, my prayers are like they have always been – petitions for peace, safety and blessings for others, expressions of gratitude for guidance, inspiration and help with my daily tasks. Nothing wrong with that, but just normal, standard prayers.

      Second, when I pray from the other side of my bed, from where I dedicated it and from where I first exercised the true order of prayer as I have now learned it and practiced it in my home, I feel that my bed is different, that I should offer the signs of the priesthood first and then use one of the signs as I pray. Is it possible only one side is the altar?

      Third, something has happened to my dreams since I dedicated my bed as an altar to the Lord. I used to be troubled by dark dreams punctuated by visitors from the unseen world. These were not sweet dreams and did not do anything to add to my rest. Now, I sleep deep and untroubled, awaken refreshed and happy. I’m sleeping on an altar!

      No, you do not need to dedicate it more than once, or at least that has been my experience so far. I would also prefer to have a proper altar in my home, but I do not have a space that can be dedicated, meaning, it will be used for nothing else but the true order of prayer. I have also wondered where I could place a “real” altar in my home. Pondering…

      1. I don’t believe that only one side of the bed is an altar, rather part of the order is facing the source of greatest light – you even see this in the Temple ceromony in that saying the prayer faces the Celestial Room. What would be interesting is seeing which side of the altar is correct in the morning and in the afternoon – does it follow the sun or is the temple you chose to face more important – I suspect that it follows your original intent (the temple).

        While the Netherlands Temple is close to me, I choose to face the Salt Lake Temple since in its dedication prayer it talks about those who face it while praying. Not that it makes too much difference since the Salt Lake Temple is slightly to the left from my bed and the Netherlands Temple is slightly to the right, I could include both without really trying.

        The side of the bed I pray at is actually the side my wife sleeps on. I am interested to see if she notices anything different once I have dedicated my altar.

        The part of the prayer that I referred to is as follows:
        Heavenly Father, when Thy people shall not have the opportunity of entering this holy house to offer their supplications unto Thee, and they are oppressed and in trouble, surrounded by difficulties or assailed by temptation and shall turn their faces towards this Thy holy house and ask Thee for deliverance, for help, for Thy power to be extended in their behalf, we beseech Thee, to look down from Thy holy habitation in mercy and tender compassion upon them, and listen to their cries. Or when the children of Thy people, in years to come, shall be separated, through any cause, from this place, and their hearts shall turn in remembrance of Thy promises to this holy Temple, and they shall cry unto Thee from the depths of their affliction and sorrow to extend relief and deliverance to them, we humbly entreat Thee to Turn Thine ear in mercy to them; hearken to their cries, and grant unto them the blessings for which they ask.

      2. Awesome, Antony. Thanks for sharing. May I add a few lines from the dedicatory prayer of my local temple, the Los Angeles temple, dedicated by President McKay in 1956, the year before I was born.

        “…If any with gloomy forebodings or heavy hearts enter, may they depart with their burdens lightened and their faith increased; if any have envy or bitterness in their hearts, may such feelings be replaced by self-searching and forgiveness.

        “May all who come within these sacred walls feel a peaceful, hallowed influence. Cause, O Lord, that even people who pass the grounds, or view the temple from afar, may lift their eyes from the groveling things of sordid life and look up to Thee and Thy providence.”

        I can testify the first paragraph has been true for me all my life. God bless us all on our journey to the veil to have courage and trust in the Lord. I am beginning to see a pattern in the source of opposition to our path. It seems to be stemming from inside the church. How can this be?

  25. Tim,

    I have been struggling with much with the Church and do sustain the leaders, but something has been stopping me from going to church. So… long story short, I haven’t been in years and haven’t been to the temple for years. I pray daily and search the scriptures, and read blogs such as Weeping for Zion, Denvers, and your continously. I know without a shadow of doubt the sacrifice that Christ made for us, that Joseph Smith is a prophet, and that the Book of Mormon is true. What is your suggestion on how I should pray.

    1. Adam, thanks for your comment. I have been pondering and praying about what I could possibly say to you. First, let me express my love for you. I am grateful you asked me for suggestions on how you should pray. I am impressed to share the following, which may be difficult:

      Only you can judge your own worthiness and your own desire to come into the presence of the Lord. Do you want to converse with Him? I promise you He wants to converse with you. I promise you He will come to you. He will speak to you in His own way and His own time.

      You have been instructed sufficiently to converse with the Lord in the true order of prayer. Do you want to? You can. Not having attended church or the temple in recent years is not a hindrance. You do not need a current temple recommend. You do not need to be “active”.

      In fact, you do not need to be a member of the LDS Church. You simply need to have been instructed sufficiently and to exercise faith unto repentance and obedience. You need to keep covenants you have made and be willing to do what the Lord tells you to do.

      You do not need to be afraid of being deceived. You have the keys to deal with that if the adversary attempts it. You do not need permission from your bishop, stake president, general authorities or the prophet. This is between you and the Lord. Now go and do what He tells you to do.

  26. Tim,
    My beautiful wife and I will be doing the true order this Sunday while fasting. We feel it is right. We have been preparing everything
    For some time now. We have experienced opposition. I know, because using Mel Fish techniques, I cast out evil spirits continually since preparatory arrangements have been made. Who doesn’t want this done? We know who and we are making reverent steps to commune. Thanks for sharing intimate thoughts and actions with us. Sacred things are vital for all to know who want everlasting lfe and the eternal round to commence.

  27. Hi SFort. By your comment it’s obvious you understand the importance of preparation. The order of heaven is filled with ceremony. It raises us to a higher level. Reverent steps including fasting will strengthen your faith and reliance upon the Lord. I’m glad there are still some people who understand the importance of commanding the messengers of the adversary in the name of Jesus Christ to leave your presence when you want to participate in sacred and holy things. God bless you my friend. In your own home, you are the presiding authority with every right, in fact, responsibility, to invite true messengers to prepare you in all things to converse with the Lord through the veil. He will respond.

  28. Tim,… and well, I guess everyone,

    After my email (to Tim) last night, I continued to contemplate things and had a conversation with my dear friend back home (the only person other than my wife I feel I can breach this subject) in which we agree we are both profoundly interested in this topic. This morning I re-asked this question to myself… “what is the true order of prayer?” and searched the church website…

    I came accross a talk by Elder Russell M. Nelson and humbly share…

    Said he,.. (quote) Jesus taught us how [to pray]. We pray to our Heavenly Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, by the power of the Holy Ghost. This is the “true order of prayer,…”(unquote)

    There is more for me to consider as I try to understand, but I just thought I’d share this without comment as I consider other questions, but I will seek more light and knowledge. Wish I was close to a temple.

    Comments? Do tell.

    1. Nathan Shackelford

      Rodney (and others) — the true order of prayer is teaching symbolically the way in which heaven and earth commune. There are so many levels of symbology and interpretation, which is exactly the way it should be, Heaven and Father are just that expansive. On the one hand it is very simple, but taking this step deepens the place, refines us further and further. Opens one up to deeper mysteries. Take your time, experiment on the word and experience. As I have had to learn, (I for sure was) we are so conditioned in our Greek linear head thinking / reading; rather than Hebrew seeing, knowing, experiencing. Follow this path, and yes there are deeper “mortal” “reading” resources available, but Tim has share even enough here to open quite the door. Many will be able to take what has been shared here and with that “construct” be able to act in faith and work through much of actually approaching Father.

      Quickly, one can not engage in this process without asking, receiving and experiencing deeper realities. Is the true order of prayer really about “secret handshakes,” is it really about “holding my hands” in a certain way? Is it really about physical objects in this mortal “holodeck”? And if it is, why doesn’t anyone who just google’s the temple ceremony, purchases some temple clothing and garments (which per the factory and hired sewing employee isn’t any more “special” than purchasing clothing from Walmart) … why isn’t everyone directly experiencing the true order of prayer? Now having said that — if any of this is necessary (movement, hand gestures, clothing), what could these practices or objects symbolically be representing? What spiritual realities could they be manifesting in the mortal? What internal keys might they be teaching us or revealing to us about a deeper more eternal, internal topography?

      It is hard to type such experiences and responses. Along this process, one will master the ability move from the physical to the spiritual and spiritual to the physical; deeper meanings, interpretations and understanding.

      Per your quote Rodney (as used by Elder Nelson). Yes, on one level that describes the true order of prayer. There really is only one Father you speak with, and again, there really is only one “Son”. Praying with your new name (Have you really taken upon you the “name of Christ”), the name of “Christ” (I’m using this name as a title, not a person), which relationship is mediated by “your” Holy Ghost (remember we are multi-dimensional beings), which when received fully there / here provides a oneness, even a connection between Heaven and Earth, Having gone there, received, we can then return and establish here; a true order.

      Rodney, just remember to be gentle with yourself along the way. We (members of the church), we have become so dogmatic, and addicted to rules, steps, processes. Even Denver, continues to give the children of Israel exactly what they want … volumes and volumes and volumes of scriptures and commandments.

      Simply experiment and experience. Be open to the many layers and interpretations that will unfold. Father will speak with you! In your own tongue, and in your own language. Your Holy Ghost will completely guide and enlighten, teach and take you by the hand. Forgive my writing, Tim has done an incredible thing, but words often get in the way.

      1. Nathan,

        Thank you.

        You just blew a couple of doors off my minds hinges and I’m grateful for that. Tim has put direction to questions I’ve had, but more questions arise, then dogmatic statements confuse.

        Both you and Tim have helped tremendously. Of course, I’ll need to re-read this whole blog another hundred times, but I have faith I’ll get the answers I need along the way.

        New questions.


      2. “The Holy Ghost” – 319 results.

        “A Holy Ghost” – 0 results.

        “Your Holy Ghost” – 0 results.

        “Your Ghost Made Holy” – 0 results.

        Some notable references.

        3 Nephi 19:13
        13 And it came to pass when they were all baptized and had come up out of the water, the Holy Ghost did fall upon them, and they were filled with the Holy Ghost and with fire.

        This is inconsistent with the Holy Ghost meaning “your ghost made holy.”

        Doctrine and Covenants 130:22
        22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

        Some might contend that this last contradicts its source material – however, it is canonized in its present form and is the binding and official teaching of the Church, by common consent. The reader of this comment has a body of flesh and bones, even if the reader is sanctified (which means “made holy”), therefore the reader is not the Holy Ghost being referred to, even if the reader possesses a “ghost made holy”.

        3 Nephi 9:20
        20 And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.

        Looking at the incident being referred to…

        Helaman 5:45
        45 And behold, the Holy Spirit of God did come down from heaven, and did enter into their hearts, and they were filled as if with fire, and they could speak forth marvelous words.

        This is inconsistent with the Holy Spirit of God, here used as a synonym for the Holy Ghost as per the Savior’s words, being “your spirit made holy.”

        And so on.

        Authorized teachers cite the scriptures and testify of their experiences.

        2 Nephi 18:20
        20 To the law and to the testimony; and if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

      3. To both Nathan and Log: Amen. I especially agree with Nathan’s counsel to be gentle with ourselves along the way. His advice to simply experiment and experience is appropriate. I now know why the Brethren have not taught this openly. It’s a shame, but true.

        There have been too many cases where those experimenting with the true order of prayer in their own homes were deceived because they did not test the messengers. They came out of their experience with false beliefs. That’s why Denver suggested it takes years of maturity in the gospel to recognize the deception and cast it out.

      1. log,
        Good scriptures. “The Holy Ghost did fall upon them and enter their hearts.”.. “the Holy Spirit of God did come down from heaven”. I would suggest considering a couple questions. Where did the Holy Ghost fall from to enter their hearts? Where is heaven from which the Spirit of God came down. Where did Christ say heaven was which the listeners couldn’t understand? (Luke 17:21).

      2. log @ 11:34 am
        Good scriptures. “The Holy Ghost did fall upon them and enter their hearts.”.. “the Holy Spirit of God did come down from heaven”. I would suggest considering a couple questions. Where did the Holy Ghost fall from to enter their hearts? Where is heaven from which the Spirit of God came down. Where did Christ say heaven was which the listeners couldn’t understand? (Luke 17:21).

      3. log April 6 @ 11:34 am
        Good scriptures. “The Holy Ghost did fall upon them and enter their hearts.”.. “the Holy Spirit of God did come down from heaven”. I would suggest considering a couple questions. Where did the Holy Ghost fall from to enter their hearts? Where is heaven from which the Spirit of God came down. Where did Christ say heaven was which the listeners couldn’t understand? (Luke 17:21).

      4. Luke 17:21 reads as follows.

        21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

        That is not a reference to heaven. But the clear references to the locality of heaven do not point inward.

        Alma 18
        28 And Ammon said: This is God. And Ammon said unto him again: Believest thou that this Great Spirit, who is God, created all things which are in heaven and in the earth?

        29 And he said: Yea, I believe that he created all things which are in the earth; but I do not know the heavens.

        30 And Ammon said unto him: The heavens is a place where God dwells and all his holy angels.

        31 And king Lamoni said: Is it above the earth?

        32 And Ammon said: Yea, and he looketh down upon all the children of men; and he knows all the thoughts and intents of the heart; for by his hand were they all created from the beginning.

        33 And king Lamoni said: I believe all these things which thou hast spoken. Art thou sent from God?

        34 Ammon said unto him: I am a man; and man in the beginning was created after the image of God, and I am called by his Holy Spirit to teach these things unto this people, that they may be brought to a knowledge of that which is just and true;

        35 And a portion of that Spirit dwelleth in me, which giveth me knowledge, and also power according to my faith and desires which are in God.

        Which is why Joseph said this.

        When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven.

        The direction is the same.

        Incidentally, the instructions are that the company is to consider themselves as if they were, respectively (not individually), Adam and Eve – which is, in other words, that the men should consider themselves as if they were Adam, and the women should consider themselves as if they were Eve.

        The Q12 said this in 1837.

        Be careful that you teach not for the word of God the commandments of men, nor the doctrines of men, nor the ordinances of men, inasmuch as you are God’s messengers. Study the word of God, and preach it and not your opinions, for no man’s opinion is worth a straw. Advance no principle but what you can prove, for one scriptural proof is worth ten thousand opinions. We would moreover say, abide by that revelation which says ‘Preach nothing but repentance to this generation,’ and leave the further mysteries of the kingdom till God shall tell you to preach them, which is not now. (History of the Church, 3:395–96.)

        This is wisdom, and how one may avoid preaching the philosophies of men mingled with scripture.

      5. Cannot forget these scriptures as well.

        Acts 1
        10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

        11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

        3 Nephi 11
        1 And now it came to pass that there were a great multitude gathered together, of the people of Nephi, round about the temple which was in the land Bountiful; and they were marveling and wondering one with another, and were showing one to another the great and marvelous change which had taken place.

        2 And they were also conversing about this Jesus Christ, of whom the sign had been given concerning his death.

        3 And it came to pass that while they were thus conversing one with another, they heard a voice as if it came out of heaven; and they cast their eyes round about, for they understood not the voice which they heard; and it was not a harsh voice, neither was it a loud voice; nevertheless, and notwithstanding it being a small voice it did pierce them that did hear to the center, insomuch that there was no part of their frame that it did not cause to quake; yea, it did pierce them to the very soul, and did cause their hearts to burn.

        4 And it came to pass that again they heard the voice, and they understood it not.

        5 And again the third time they did hear the voice, and did open their ears to hear it; and their eyes were towards the sound thereof; and they did look steadfastly towards heaven, from whence the sound came.

        6 And behold, the third time they did understand the voice which they heard; and it said unto them:

        7 Behold my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, in whom I have glorified my name—hear ye him.

        8 And it came to pass, as they understood they cast their eyes up again towards heaven; and behold, they saw a Man descending out of heaven; and he was clothed in a white robe; and he came down and stood in the midst of them; and the eyes of the whole multitude were turned upon him, and they durst not open their mouths, even one to another, and wist not what it meant, for they thought it was an angel that had appeared unto them.

        The original question was “Where did the Holy Ghost fall from to enter their hearts? Where is heaven from which the Spirit of God came down.” The scriptural answer is “up” or, more loquaciously, “from on high.”

  29. This has been a topic of study and contemplation by humble and faithful people throughout the ages. Elder Nelson is using the phrase in this instance to differentiate between the practice of some people to pray directly to Christ and the practice of the Latter-day Saints to pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ.

    Of course Elder Nelson (and Elder McConkie) know full well we use the phrase in a different way in the temple. It takes on additional, special meaning as we are taught in the endowment. This is sacred ground. We are not just being taught to whom we pray or that the order of prayer means to express gratitude first and then voice petitions.

    The True Order of Prayer (or Order of Prayer if you prefer) includes the prayer circle, a practice of the ages. It also includes the signs of the priesthood. Here’s a nice post about the family altar from blogger Jonathan Stapley back in 2006 as found on the LDS group blog, By Common Consent:

    Want more? Ask specific questions. There are many who can contribute here without breaking any covenants. I remember this General Conference address from Elder Nelson you linked. Elder Nelson has taught truth, but not all truth, meaning there is more we learn in the temple and more our Heavenly Father will teach us.

    Thanks Rodney. God bless.

    1. Thanks Tim, a good read.

      Actually this helped to create a more complete visual than I had when contemplating a family prayer circle at the family alter.

      This answers other questions I had as well.


      1. The Lord is more concerned with why you do things than what you do. All signs tokens and words are to represent and convey meaning to you. What we do becomes important when we understand the meaning of why we are doing it. What I like about this post and discussion is that it will encourage some to look into the meaning and importance of the order of prayer and the associated symbols. The power of godliness is manifest through ordinances. It might just mean that the power of your godliness starts to be manifest to you through the ordinances.
        There is an order or ceremony to prayer that will allow us to converse with the Lord through the veil and receive instruction or revelation. We then need to show it was received by believing it and living by it. We soon become sanctified and gain confidence to be able to endure or enter his presence.
        There should be a prayer circle going on inside us or WITHIN us. The Holy Ghost is the one kneeling and speaking at the alter after our body(eve) and our mind (adam) is joined in harmony with each other in love deferring to the Holy Ghost.. We show signs that we are obeying the laws given to us and then allow the Holy Ghost to speak and then we repeat the words. This indeed is mighty prayer.

  30. superlativereality

    The Lord is more concerned with why you do things than what you do. All signs tokens and words are to represent and convey meaning to you. What we do becomes important when we understand the meaning of why we are doing it. What I like about this post and discussion is that it will encourage some to look into the meaning and importance of the order of prayer and the associated symbols.

    The power of godliness is manifest through ordinances. It might just MEAN that the power of your godliness starts to be manifest to you through the ordinances.

    There is an order or ceremony to prayer that will allow us to converse with the Lord through the veil and receive instruction or revelation. We then need to show it was received by believing it and living by it. We soon become sanctified and gain confidence to be able to endure or enter his presence.

    There should be a prayer circle going on inside us or WITHIN us. The Holy Ghost is the one kneeling and speaking at the alter after our body(EVE) and our mind (ADAM) is joined in harmony with each other in love deferring to the Holy Ghost.. We show signs that we are obeying the laws given to us and then allow the Holy Ghost to speak and then we repeat the words. This indeed is mighty prayer.

    1. Superlative Reality: Now I am being taught here. I had an awesome feeling come over me as I read your last paragraph. Equating our body with Eve and our mind with Adam had never occurred to me. But then I remembered prayers where I know it was the Holy Ghost giving me the words to say, then I would repeat them. Thanks for sharing. God bless.

      1. superlativereality

        You deserve the thanks for opening the topic and inspiring others to look more into a very worthy subject. If there is an order or ceremony to pray that will bring us closer to communing with God and our redeemer then I can’t think of anything more essential.

        You gotta think that God might be tired of the many repetitive/vain prayers offered every day/night in which we even put ourselves to sleep sometimes:)

        It seems that the whole gospel, entire scriptures,every prophet–all the temples and ordinances are trying to get us to one point… to gain a connection with Heaven. To commune with divinity, receive revelation to know what manner of men/women we might need to be. To pierce the heavens, pierce the veil, pierce the unbelief and discover the mind of God WITHIN us and enter his presence.

        With such an important goal I imagine that the process and order to this would be steep in symbolism to raise our souls to think differently to higher heights than our natural carnal thoughts can take us.

    2. Eve = Flesh / Body
      Adam = Spirit / Mind

      Another symbol is:

      Eve = subconscious mind
      Adam = conscious mind

      If you have ever studied the subconscious and conscious mind, this makes sense. It’s worth a quick google to study the attributes of the subconscious and conscious mind – that are both within you.

      Absolutely mind-blowing blog here. Great stuff. Thank you!!

      1. Yes, those representations can explain concepts such as why Eve should be subject to Adam, who is subject to God.

        I’ve written a whole book about this, but to be brief, another possible layer of interpretation is:

        Eve = subjective perception/entity, “emotion”
        Adam = objective perception/entity, “thought”

        What things we subjectively feel* are the truth should be subordinate to the things we objectively know are the truth, which is subordinate to all truth itself.

        * I’ll admit I don’t like the English words “feel” or “feeling.” They’re too ambiguous. They can refer to physical sensations, or they can refer to beliefs/impressions that are not arrived at by classical logical reasoning.

      2. DS wrote on his blog (not in the mood to go searching right now, sorry to not cite properly) that knowledge is the domain of men, and wisdom is the domain of women. That idea really resonated with me.

      3. This is for Julie: There is no doubt in my mind this is true. My wife is far wiser than me. She is not convinced of anything even if I show it to her in black and white. She is hanging onto what gives her comfort. I do not blame her in the least. She does not like change. Her determination is a strength to me. I thrive with her challenges to my over-enthusiastic embracing of Denver Snuffer’s teachings. She is wise. She holds back and watches me to see if I become a different and better person. She encourages me with that unspoken challenge. I am Adam. She is Eve.

      4. I think we must also recognize the other characters portrayed in relation to Adam and Eve. I’ve read one account where Eve is compared to the Physical body, Adam to the Spirit that lives with in the body, and those sent to give us instruction as the Mind (of God), that part of God that is within us that we are able to receive when the body and spirit are unified. I especially like to think of it this way in the prayer circle. Adam and Eve, (body and spirit) are at one with each other, and Peter offers up the prayer (mind of God). When all three are present, the heavens are opened.

  31. The temple is all about us. It’s all about each of us. Remember we are a temple– “What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?(1 Corinthians 6:19)

    What if this is Literal? If so..what are we the temple of?

    If we are the temple (individually), then I am the temple, you are the temple, each person reading this is the temple. Also then what goes on in the temple is suppose to go on within us individually(in this life). We each are to imagine ourselves (individually) as Adam AND Eve. We each are Adam and Eve.(As far as the symbolism/lessons taught in temple)

    After the fall, Adam needs to awake, arise and realize he is Michael.. We need to awake, arise and realize who we are!

    I believe we are to take that scripture literally. That makes what goes on in the temple very important for us. Especially, the true order of prayer and the role of the Holy Ghost in our lives in leading us to commune with God. How great would it be to have it as our constant companion?! How high INWARD would we need to arise or reach to make that happen? I bet we could reach Heaven within.

    “I cried unto him in mighty prayer and supplication for mine own soul; and all the day long did I cry unto him; yea, and when the night came I did still raise my voice high that it REACHED THE HEAVENS.” (Enos 1:4)

  32. Wow! Thank you Lord for answering my prayers. I truly believe I was guided to find this blog. I was asking for wisdom and knowledge and came across just that. Thanks to all for sharing your experiences.

  33. superlativereality

    To log, on April 7, 2014 at 1:05 am.

    The scriptures are tips of icebergs that only by revelation do they reveal vast bodies of truth that the prophets are trying to relay. Our connection to heaven matters and it is only through the Holy Ghost that you can make that connection. I can assure you God has placed it within reaching distance and wants to be more specific than “up” or “from on High” It is a pearl of great price which He has paid a great price to show us our worth. His love is vast and his direction constant. We have to pay a price to obtain it but it is worth more than all of the treasures of Egypt.

    “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it. (Matthew 13:45).

    1. Dear Superlativereality,

      2 Nephi 25:29
      29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

      We purchase the pearl by doing exactly this.

      For further details, see the rest of Alma 18 beyond what I have already cited (particularly verse 41), Alma 22:7-18, Moses 6:47-68, and D&C 19:31.

      President Benson taught thus:

      It is important that in our teaching we make use of the language of holy writ. Alma said, “I … do command you in the language of him who hath commanded me” (Alma 5:61).

      The words and the way they are used in the Book of Mormon by the Lord should become our source of understanding and should be used by us in teaching gospel principles.



      1. As I read this scripture, I am again reminded of my experience with Bro Pace’s book and further wonder about why he was chastised by Bruce R. McConkie.

  34. Nathan Shackelford

    @ Log …

    I have been pondering your words and scriptures, and maybe the posting of this is just for me, and me just wanting to verbalize for my own benefit, thanks in advance for your patience.

    I get that i don’t always say things the right way, or have the right scriptures. I’m pretty sure that we use certain symbols (ie words, scriptures, etc.) very differently. Having said that, I completely learn from you, your exactness and the edge of your sword — so powerful.

    Additionally, I will be the first to concede I’m not “authorized” in the least, certainly not the way you would use the word. I’m also not using the same point of reference in sharing — again, I’m ok with that. I will also openly admit (although, again, I’m sure I don’t use the word the way you would use it), that I have been AND will be “deceived” along my path…no doubt about that! Show me a person that has never been deceived and well …

    My point is two-fold. I want to honor you in the sense of your gift, love of truth, love of rightness, of God … of the Holy Ghost. I mean, it is incredible.

    And maybe you know this but the path of the truly righteous is filled with paradoxes … it is almost humorous the way God breaks His own “commandments” when it comes to revealing himself to His Sons (using the term generically). Not all of life, its experiences or the path (content) is laid out in scripture.

    There has to be 100 plus life experiences (spiritual and / or demonic) that one could google via and not a single phrase or experience is in the scriptures?

    Which leads to me experiencing 90% + of my life is complete deception (because I can’t google it and find it in the Book of Mormon), which i’m open to … or I’ve had specific experiences (some of which i may not fully understand for years … and maybe there is just perpetual understanding?) … and something has been lost in translation.

    I can testify and speak to what I have experienced, knowing that I’m still learning! Still open to deception (messengers don’t always show up with name badges) and there is a seriously steep learning curves to EXPERIENCING the gospel rather than simply reading about it, or going into a dark room and watching a movie about it.

    I have been deceived along my path, and I will be deceived…so be it! Apparently there is some lessons there. if there wasn’t a lesson then I guess I would be making those mistakes…Hell can’t hold me and Hell certainly wouldn’t want me! Just ask my wife … I’m a total pain in the ass, lol 🙂

    Having said that, I have experienced there. I have experienced there, here (NO, this is NOT some second comforter testimony!). I don’t walk ahead of anyone, and have just as many warts and zits as the next guy. But since I hit planet earth, this time around, burned into my body and soul is a deep testimony of identity and relationship; who I am here, and who I am there. I may not be able to google it on, but that will never change what I experience inside of me, nor what I am completely pathetically trying to assist Heaven with here.

    My experience .. we all come with both baggage and GOLD. Thanks for letting me say this. Again, I thank you for all you allow, share and teach!!! and I sincerely mean that!

    1. One of the things I appreciate about many of the sisters’ addresses at Conference is that, like Tim, they are sharing life experiences – testifying, according to the true meaning of the word – and allowing the audience to arrive at their own conclusions concerning the meaning of it all.

    2. Nathan Shackelford,,

      “And maybe you know this but the path of the truly righteous is filled with paradoxes … it is almost humorous the way God breaks His own “commandments” I don’t have any idea what this means???

  35. Chris Harrison

    Now I know. PURE LIGHT AND KNOWLEDGE. I went to the temple tonight with new eyes and ears. Now I know. Not just some trite statement but a declaration of pure light and knowledge transmitted AND received. We are blessed to be the children of such a loving and gracious God. Now I know!

  36. Nathan Shackelford

    I wanted to add something (more of a correction to some comments I made before). I had an experience over this past weekend. In the area where I live, we had a first Adventure Film Festival. Quickly, a three day festival showing numerous short films, typically about nature, outdoors, climbing, challenging fears, awareness of this incredible creation earth!!

    Anyway, to the point. I went into the weekend with comments from this blog in my heart and seeking for answers (i’m just that way, God talks to me / sends messages from just about everywhere).

    I previously made a comment to the effect that the temple, the true order of prayer are external representations of an internal process. This behaviors, experiences in the mortal, mirror eternal truths, realities, potentialites, etc. And in so doing, making that comment, for me it came across that maybe it doesn’t matter if your do things a certain way or not. Well, it does!

    While I already know this, the point was driven home by Father as the below linked movie was played. Loud and clear, Father said, “Hand placement matters!” (see the link and you may understand why) .. 🙂

    Maybe the message was personal, a reminder for me. but as it has been noted symbols matter, meaning matters, why matters … congruency along this entire continuum of experience matters; clear from light, intelligence, Father, Son, Holy Ghost, spirit, soul, body, mortal, material and shared mortal experience. It matters. Light and love must be able to pass through each connecting point of awareness / experience. Maybe, just maybe, the true order of prayer allows us to effectively organize the mortal / material, into a reorganized conduit for the eternal? Thus aligning, we can then allow for more of there to be established here 🙂

    Link: “Moonwalk”

  37. The Prophet Joseph Smith offered this advice, “I encourage you to surround yourself with those who know how to pray”. This council was given to those members of the “anointed quorum” in Nauvoo. A path of study is to look up Hugh Nibleys study of the Early Christian Prayer Circle in BYU Studies and D. Michael Quinn”s research inspired by Brother Nibleys work on Early Mormon prayer Circles published in the same periodical long before he had troubles with the church. This is a common practice among those who have found through inspiration the strength and insight through revelation to do so. The above warning should be heeded as Lucifer desires to upend you if you do not have sufficent faith and knowledge about what you are doing. After all, “God will not be mocked!” That being said I have received answers before I have asked in prayer but continued onto fulfill all righteousness. Very powerful stuff.
    May the Lord Bless you all in your efforts!

  38. brucerognane Rognan

    Thank you so much for your insight, which was very well written, and echoed with a ring of familiarity in me.

    I love the ancient phrase “if you bring forth the rose inside you what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring for the rose that is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you.:

    I wish you well bringing forth your rose, which in my view, is the same as making your calling and election sure.

  39. The more I seek for truth the more I find similarities across cultures. Hand placement matters, yes. I have been studying meditative yoga for several months now. “Mudra” is a sanskrit word for “seal”, “mark” or “gesture”. Mudras are the specific hand placements used during meditation or breathing practices. This is a technology that has been around for thousands of years. I am in awe of God who gives liberally to any and all who seek truth.

  40. This is an incredible blog. Thank you Tim for sharing your marvelous experience with the TOP. I would love to visit with you sometime about having one’s CEMS.

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