Advocating For The LDS Church

LDSChurchOfficeBuildingA kind reader, Michael, asked my opinion of a recent post on his blog, Latter-day Flare Gun. At first I thought to answer him privately, but decided he had done such a good job of making his point that I emailed to let him know I would answer publicly. Here is his point: “We should be advocates (as Christ) of the LDS church, not accusers, regardless of their priesthood status.”

There is a lot in that concluding statement, which I take as my opening statement. I’d like to examine it and throw it out for discussion. In Michael’s post entitled, “What Denver Didn’t Say,” he shares parallels Denver brought to our attention in the tenth lecture about what the Lord did through John the Baptist and what he is doing today. Lecture ten was a day of decision for many.

Although he didn’t quote any examples of rhetoric, he appears to be responding to conversations on the various forums, blogs and email groups where Denver’s writings are discussed. Michael quoted and discussed several key points from the tenth lecture. He then wrote, “…the rhetoric among people that have accepted the Denver Snuffer message seems to paint a picture which:

God’s Strange Act

  1. Neglects the historical parallels to John the Baptist beyond a superficial level
  2. Maintains an exclusionary LDS God model
  3. Reflects current LDS priesthood models
  4. Judges the LDS church to be in a deeper state of disrepair than it currently is
  5. Attributes God’s act to the current state of the LDS church, rather than to future changes it will undergo

I hope by now you’re intrigued enough to have visited Michael’s blog. If not, take a minute to read the supporting statements that accompany his five concluding points. At first I wasn’t sure I agreed with his conclusion. The more I thought about what is going on in the online community among those who were re-baptized – and there are thousands – the more I agreed with Michael.

I have stayed out of the lively discussions going on this week at each of the online groups after Denver’s post about the need for a central recorder. Frankly, I didn’t think it was that big a deal. My baptism was very public, shared dozens of times by other LDS bloggers, and was witnessed by my wife, who attended and took the photos. I sent my name in to Debbie to have it recorded.

Present A Record In The Temple

offering-in-templeFor anyone who is following the developments of those who have accepted the message the Lord delivered through Denver Snuffer, you know we are very loosely organized. In fact, there is no hierarchical structure in place at all, at least as far as I can tell. It’s pretty flat. We each report to the Lord and can accept truth from whatever messenger we deem to be a true messenger of God.

Apparently having a central recorder is important enough for Denver to nominate Keith to the position. That does not mean those who have been acting as recorders, such as Debbie, need to cease their volunteer efforts at all. There can be as many local recorders as are needed for each of the local groups. The central recorder ensures the record to be presented in the temple is correct.

I’ve shared in a previous post I want to contribute to the building of that temple. It may or may not be in my lifetime, but I want to be involved. I have no idea where it will be, nor do I care. Just as there are many places that could qualify for the gathering place of the people of Zion, there are many places where the temple could be built. I want to live long enough to see it built.

Policy Changes in the LDS Church

On to the point: “We should be advocates (as Christ) of the LDS church, not accusers, regardless of their priesthood status.” Denver has made it clear the LDS Church can no longer claim to be the exclusive channel through which the Lord will perform His work in the last days. This, of course is due to the actions of the leaders in exercising compulsion and control in the priesthood.

free-to-back-gay-marriageI experienced this firsthand when I was placed on informal probation – the lowest of disciplinary actions – for writing in my blog. In other words, the LDS Church seeks to control and compel the members of the church to believe a certain way. Yet the church is sending mixed messages with the recent statement no member is to be punished for advocating or supporting marriage equality.

That raises the question, in my mind at least, if I would have been disciplined had my blog posts been in support of marriage equality instead of supporting the idea the Lord can send authorized messengers from outside the hierarchy of the LDS Church. I am personally aware of a dozen excommunications for apostasy of individuals who feel the same as I do about such messengers.

God Bless The LDS Church

I don’t want to make this a long post. I simply wanted to draw your attention to Michael’s blog, Latter Day Flare Gun, his post on “What Denver Didn’t Say,” and to see if you agree with his conclusion that we should be advocates of the LDS Church, not accusers, regardless of their priesthood status. I agree with his closing statement and offer the following for consideration:

BreadAndWineI still attend Sacrament meeting with my wife each Sunday. I enjoy the talks, the singing and the sacrament. Yes, I take the sacrament even though I’m not a member. I then go home and have my own sacrament with wine. Sometime I dress in the robes of the priesthood and offer up the desires of my heart to the Lord before my altar in a more formal manner than I do each day.

I love the people of my ward. They are good people. I love the leaders of my ward and stake, even though I am no longer a member. I pray for them. I appreciate their efforts. They are doing a great job and deserve my prayers and support. I do not pay tithing to the LDS Church anymore but have asked Carol to please hold the tithing money until the Lord directs us how to spend it.

Continue To Pray For One Another

I also pray for the general authorities of the LDS Church. I look forward to hearing what they have to say in two weeks. I will watch all sessions of General Conference with Carol as we always do. I probably won’t tweet about it as I have in the past but I will enjoy the ongoing commentary of fellow bloggers and tweeters as the talks are delivered and discussed online.

If I have come across in my blog of being critical of the LDS Church, I repent and ask your forgiveness. There’s no way I’ll ever be a member of the LDS Church again in my lifetime. I have no desire to join the organization, nor can I qualify as I don’t believe the statement that Thomas Monson holds and is the only person on earth authorized to exercise all priesthood keys.

In spite of over fifty years of membership in the LDS Church, having served in many leadership positions for over twenty-five years – bishoprics and a high council – in spite of having taught a multitude of lessons about the subject, in spite of a dozen blog posts on the same, I still can’t define keys or what specific keys the LDS Church claims to hold and exercise in exclusivity.

Follow Christ, Give Heed To Prophets

I belong to several online groups that have the mission to build bridges between those who believe a certain way and those who believe the traditional or orthodox way the LDS Church teaches on certain subjects. I like that. I believe dialog helps understanding and prevents hard feelings. I hope we can have the same consideration for those who accept outside messengers.

follow-the-prophetI know there are always going to be those who hate, in spite of claims to love and a belief in the eleventh article of faith: “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.” I worship and follow Christ and only Christ. I follow no prophet.

I appreciate those who are firm in their convictions but are able to express them with love and understanding. They feel secure in what God has revealed to them about following the prophets. I continue to have dozens of ongoing conversations with non-LDS folks. I encourage them to get baptized into the LDS Church, wait a year and go to the temple. You need that sacred instruction.

Unconditional Love For One Another

I continue to pray for the LDS missionaries. I welcome them into my home. Two of my former primary students are now serving missions. I pray for their success. I am so pleased I was able to serve a mission for the LDS Church and to have been endowed in the temple nearly forty years ago. I love the temple. I miss attending the temple but am grateful for what I have learned there.

I appreciate my former stake presidents and missionary companions who have reached out to me. The LDS Church is filled with good people. I recommend it to anybody needing a supporting social organization for their family. The youth programs are the best. I loved attending seminary and institute as well as my days at Ricks College BYU Idaho. I’m glad I was a Latter-day Saint.

I hope we can focus on commonalities going forward. I am not trying to convince or persuade you of anything. I simply enjoy sharing my experiences as I travel this same path back to heaven as we all must follow – through this mortal plane of existence. I look forward to being with my family members in eternity, relying on the promise of my Savior to redeem my soul from hell.

The Lord’s Unique Timetable

JesusRedRobeOne final note comes to mind which I feel to share. I was re-reading a chapter in The Second Comforter the other day. In it, Denver expressed the idea that the receipt of the personal visit from the Savior is most likely after many years of maturing in the gospel. I like that. I feel like I still need to mature in the gospel. There is so much about the Lord’s work I don’t understand.

I think I may have shared I had a dream a few years ago, shortly after I was introduced to the writings of Denver Snuffer. In that dream I was visited by my mother, who came from the spirit world to express how pleased she was with my progress. As we embraced, she looked at my hands and arms, saw they were filled with light and said, “You are ready for your mission.”

Immediately the thought came to my mind, “When will I embrace the Savior?” I heard a voice say, “Seven of eight.” There was more to the dream. I have recorded it. I asked the Lord for an interpretation. It came thus, “If you live into your eighties, you will embrace the Lord in your seventies.” I rejoiced and still rejoice. I have time to repent. I thank God for this mortal life.


59 thoughts on “Advocating For The LDS Church”

  1. Tim – Thanks so much for posting this. It echos feelings and impressions I’ve been having for several weeks now. I posted the following over in the LDS Remnant and Preserving the Restoration groups.

    Thank you,

    Hey Everyone – I have some thoughts that have been on my mind for quite some time now. I’ve read Tim Malone’s latest blog post ( and I really liked it. It’s exactly what has been on my mind for several weeks now. And so it made me want to finally say something. Despite all I’ve learned about the fullness of the gospel and our possibilities for coming into the presence of the Lord while in the flesh and what Zion is actually going to look like, etc, I feel all the failings and vanity that my soul possesses and I see that this is a labor that is going to require a monumental effort for me. And that’s just to work out my own salvation. In my limited experiences in “gathering” with like-minded individuals outside of my church attendance (and hearing of others’ efforts), I realize that this is no small task to create nucleation points for Zion.

    I’ve been through my own stages of bitterness or cynicism or even self-righteousness (with respect to the church) as I’ve experienced my own “awakening”. In the end, the conclusion I’ve come back to is I’ve got nothing on many of the good people I’m surrounded by in the church. The one inkling of an advantage I might have is the intensity of my focus and effort to seek the Holy Ghost above anything else to show to me all things that I should do (the doctrine of Christ as taught by Nephi in 2 Nep 31 and 32). That’s the one small thread I have to hang onto. Otherwise, my vanities and pride threaten to keep me from the Lord that I seek to hear and hearken to.

    Those of us who are still active in the church, we *have* communities. These wards and branches are communities just like the ones that we’re trying to form outside of the church. The work of my salvation, I’ve come to believe, is going to be predicated in large part upon my efforts to pray for and reach out to and strive to touch these beautiful people I’m in fellowship with in my ward and in my family and in my other acquaintances. I’ve felt a need to maintain a charity toward this household of faith. I believe there is to be found there a *great* harvest.

    I just want to end with a brief, partial description of a dream I had in January 2013. I was mingling amiably among a group of people who I believe are a representation of the current LDS church. The building I was in was all modern-looking except for a comparatively small portion that was musty and antiquated. This room was vacant and I found it an ideal place to kneel and pray and prepare myself to meet the Lord. But before I had come to that room, I had encountered an old man sitting on a chair and a young boy, maybe 8 to 10 years old sitting on the floor beside him. The people I was mingling with paid no attention to either the old man or the young boy.

    The young boy was in a mournful state. And I found, after inquiring of him, that he had lost one or both of his parents. It seems that in his period of grieving and loss, the old man had come to be there with him to provide comfort. The old man, however, only stared at the floor the whole time I spoke with the boy. He never spoke with me. I made some attempts to comfort the boy, but I had limited success. In large part, my desire to comfort the boy had sprung forth from a desire to prepare myself to meet the Lord. That’s what I was preoccupied with. In that preoccupation, I parted from the boy and went and prayed in the antiquated portion of the building.

    I emerged later from the antiquated room to find that, by this time, the modern portion of the building was largely vacant. All I found there was the boy I had spoken with earlier and a couple of his friends. By this time, though, the boy was a teenager. And having lost much of the innocence and vulnerability I had seen before in him, he had acquired a rather hardened and maybe even bitter disposition about him. I asked how I had failed to comfort him and he replied that I hadn’t thought to pray for him.

    I believe the modern portion of the building is a representation of the present day church and the antiquated portion represents the incomplete restoration through Joseph Smith. In my zeal to obtain the blessings promised by the fullness of the gospel as taught by Joseph Smith, I had neglected to seek deep to minister to and intercede for and bring comfort to the young boy. The young boy I think can be a representation of the humble followers of Christ in the LDS church who mourn for comfort. These are the orphaned of the LDS church, those who seek comfort, but know not where to find it.

    I believe the old man was the Lord in a hidden form. In the same way that he was not known to the two disciples on the way to Emmaus until after he had left their presence, I didn’t recognize the man for who he actually was until after I had pondered this dream a great deal. I believe this was a message to me from the Lord to intercede for, labor for, labor in the midst of and minister to and serve the people who remain faithfully in the LDS church. I have to believe that if I had passed the “test” in this dream, the Lord would have, then and there, made himself manifest to me. He would have revealed his identity. But he tested my heart and found it still unprepared.

    I believe that there is great light and manifestations in store for those who intercede for and labor for and love and serve and minister to the “orphaned” of the LDS church who are the humble followers of Christ, but who are led that in many instances they err because of the precepts of their teachers. Toward these *and* their teachers, I believe that we must have the utmost charity.

    God make us the least of servants, I pray.

  2. I am new here, and I admit this has been a long journey. And I will be making quite a bit better effort to follow some of the basic commandments like Wine with sacrament and so on. I also admit that this post will sound bitter and angry perhaps. But hear me out.

    I’ve heard this plenty. Stay in the church you say. I have no ill will towards the church. the church has lot of good people you say. I say hogwash. pure hogwash. Lets see why i think that way.

    On one hand we have the acknowledgment that the church has so far off base and utterly astray that Denver Snuffer can be a man deemed worthy of seeing Christ face to face and yet be cast out of the church and somehow this church is good? This sounds like we can crucify Christ and still call ourselves The Lord’s church.

    We also have the scriptures…..They state that the final days will be like the days of noah…..lets not forget the planet had gone so insane that only 8 are saved. if one reads the book of Moses we see description after description of the days of Noah. basically in God’s own words this was the worst planet in all of eternity, all of eternity shook, the heavens weeped, Eve cried because of her children, the earth cried, all of eternity cried and shook again. Of course the ultimate condemning statement about those days was The Lord repenting for having made us. let that statement sink in….our Creator, Our Lord, Our Savior, actually repents and is sad that He made us. We are not by and large good people. we are by and large evil and terrible. He who is perfect actually felt a compelling need to repent for making us.

    let us not get ahead of ourselves here….this planet is doomed. We are not good and wholesome. the church is not by default filled with bubbling lights of goodness. this just cannot be. Mormon or was it Moroni? one of them asks us the ever spooky question “Why have ye polluted the holy church of God?”

    Nephi echos these statements with all the churches have gone astray and all have gone astray save it be a few humble followers of Christ but even they do err because of the teachings of men.

    the book of revelations is one giant commentary on the end days falling into completely and pure hellish insanity.

    so lets not sit here in some sort of daze and pretend the church is anywhere near fine. Anyone sitting in it is simply kidding themselves.

    I do agree we should be careful about accussations because Satan is the great accusser, but that being said matching observable facts with scriptures and drawing a conclusion is not an accusation anymore than boldly stating 2 + 2 = 4.

    Look I think Snuffer is who he says he is, that being said, i think his message is too nicely put. I think we a Captain Moroni approach, you know the man who was going to kill a city if they didnt take up their arms and defend freedom yet later we learn that if all men were like Moroni the gates of hell would shake. Or a Moses who went completely off on the jews who were worshipping the calf yet he is “the friend of God”. Or maybe even some of Jesus who flipped out on the temple money changers.

    Sometimes sugar coating the truth under niceness makes you completely miss the point.

    so the question I have for everyone is….how much loyality should we have to a falling a church? how long can we let ourselves and our families do the sacrament wrong? how long can we continue to give priesthood blessings that barely work? When was the last time you saw a lame man commanded in the name of Christ to get up and walk and he walked? Indeed Wo unto us for miracles have ceased and all is in vain. how long can we keep bastardizing the temple(and kicking out men that converse with Christ face to face) and removing parts of the ceremony? how many more fast and testimony meetings can we sit through where everyone gets up and bears testimony of everything under the sun except for Jesus Christ? How long can we keep going on this path is quite complacency stating ALL IS WELL while ignoring Nephi who says “Wo unto him that says ALL IS WELL”? How long can we do these things and so many more things and still think God is with us?

    Indeed we call ourselves The Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints….but we say in our hearts and actions Lord, You wait outside, we got this. So God waits outside, uninvited and yet we say this is HIS church? didn’t know the owner of the church was forced to wait outside. I must have missed the memo where that was said to make sense.

    I get it….its scary. the LDS church has a lot of truth….but at the end of the day, if you read your scriptures with real intent and pray with real intent you will see the writing on the wall. All is not well, the church is in very very very serious trouble. more trouble than it thinks. many supposedly good folks are going to get slaughtered and lose their souls in church. for God is not found in the walls of a building as men suppose. God is far bigger than that and we should seek Him wherever He is.

    Snuffer is right….dont waste 3 hours at church, but i take it a step further. You believe the church has gone astray? you think we need to rebaptise and do the sacrament with wine? then go do that instead of listening to another lifeless 3 hour church block that is reciting the same old nonsense that got it into this mess in the first place.

    and it is with this conclusion and this realization and denying my dreams and visions and spirtual experiences no more(ok running from them no more), that I will continue down the path of the point of no return and be rebaptized on Tuesday.

    We need a massive wake up call. Snuffer is right….we are in a deep slumber. Snuffer is waking up our Captain Moroni who will pound us over the head until we get it unlike Snuffers much more gentle wake up call, but it is ever so gentle that the aforementioned Captain Moroni will see it for what it….a call to war to with Satan himself. This is war, and we ought not treat it lightly.

    1. Lynne McKinley Orem, Utah

      Thank you, Adam Hutto. That was well spoken, with restraint and even generosity. I think this particular post of Tim’s is going to open up some floodgates.

      I removed my name from membership in the LDS church 15 years ago, in obedience to a prompt by God to do so, in order to stand as a first person witness to evil in high places. Several other lifelong active church members did likewise at the same time and for the same reason.

      It is not my purpose here to elaborate on the heretofore hidden pedophilia and ritual abuse rings, judicial collusion and secret political combinations which reach into and infect the very top of the LDS “priesthood” hierarchy, but only to say that the cries of the mothers and the children (and we are legion) have gone up to The Lord of The Sabbath who has heard our cries. It is HE who will remove, rectify, repair and restore.

      Jesus Christ has spoken through Denver Snuffer a very soft message (whether you realize it or not) of gentle entreaty to come out of this evil thing before it is destroyed. And it will be destroyed. The Glen Pace memo was merely a very small tip of the very large iceberg of evil which has been quietly expanding in its reach and power since Joseph and Hyrum Smith were murdered by their friends.

      When the unbelievably heinous acts of some men in highly visible leadership positions in the LDS church have finally come to light and the world is rocked and nauseated by the revelations, there WILL be a falling away as predicted in (JST) 2 Thessalonians 2:3: “let no man deceive you by any means; for there shall come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition”.

      However, that falling away won’t be just a few disaffected folks on the fringe who refused to stay in the boat – it will be a massive exodus out of the LDS church by active members at all levels who are so devastated in grief and despair that they will want literally nothing to do with Joseph Smith, The Restoration, the Book of Mormon or even Jesus Christ.

      It will be a day of great deep mourning for all of us who have loved the good things about the good church.

      The people of the world will be so outraged that they will not only refuse to accept or read the Book of Mormon but will burn extant copies, kill identifiable LDS missionaries, and think they do it all in the name of a just God. Thus, the subtle emphasis by Denver Snuffer: “it’s not your BOOK, it’s your WORKS” which will gather souls in to the pure Gospel of Jesus Christ in the near future.

      The Restoration which Joseph Smith began will be preserved and continued among the real latter day pioneers: the small newly baptized family groups who are re-reading, studying and cherishing the Words of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, meeting together in homes, learning how to serve each other and share without any of the correlated lessons, official callings, physical meeting structures and bottomless funding supporting the LDS church programs.

      In the very near future the LDS church will become a hiss and a byword – a moot point in any discussions such as this blog topic. However, for now, it still serves the purpose of reaching some truly seeking souls who may be strong enough to emerge from the rubble after the explosion and move on in their personal journey to Christ.

      My personal gratitude is extended to brave men like Tim Malone and you, Adam Hutto, and all those who have likewise responded to the Words of Christ spoken through Denver Snuffer to renew their commitment through a new baptism – men who stand as public witnesses of Christ in all places, at all times and to all people under their own names at great personal cost, thereby restoring to our view a true picture of righteous manhood at a crucial time on this earth.

  3. Adam and Tim

    I agree with some of each of your points. Yes there will be a captain moroni type figure. No doubt God is preparing many such people, but God has not begun with that yet.
    Encourage the Catholic in his worship if that is raising his head to God. Encourage the baptist in his worship. Encourage the Mormon. They are there because for whatever reason God has placed them there. I mean if there was absolutely no use for a church, God would have done something to destroy that church already.
    Every religion is acting as a vehicle to help people raise their awareness and look to God. Just like we used to hear that other Christian churches can act as stepping stones, little do people realize the LDS church is the same thing.
    So while God still has patience with all the churches, so should we, even though in the end they are all just mortal institutions and all who remain on the earth will be gathered outside any of them. Every church has truth, every church teaches falsehoods, including Denver’s pseudo-church.

  4. This sounds like a conundrum, doesn’t it? I think we can easily do the Lord’s work without establishing sides. There are at least 7.5 billion people on earth. How much of the active LDS are the only interest to the Lord? It has been stated in ancient writings that the Lord has seven enlightened men on the seven continents at any time. Hmmm, Does that mean the LDS Church or the “remnant” is only of interest to the Creator? The principles he taught to the Nephites, the Nemenhah, the Jews, the Gentiles, Buddha, Mohammad, Chinese through Tao and those in Africa can only come from the LDS Church or the remnant?

    Me must see the big picture here. follow His teachings and you will be His. Groupings, labelings, demarcations, separations, and chosen status people cannot usher in the Lord’s coming. He will come when it is time, period. He wants to save us all. He will save all of us eventually. Perhaps another mortal sojourn.

    There can be no separation with all of the Lord’s children. Pray for those who despitefully use you, pray for your enemies, and pray that evil will shrink. We are not the only ones out there. There are other prophets, enlightened beings you know not of who work within the framework of the geopolitical state their mission is with.. We have to raise our consciousness. We must think higher thoughts. This is what changes the outlook. The universe will change with our thoughts,; because every creation starts with a thought. The LDS Church will take care of itself, the Christians will take care of themselves, and the rest of the world will take care of themselves. We will be lifted to the world we are willing to receive. We will progress to a world we are willing to receive. If not now, then later when we receive the enlightenment we are willing to receive and get it. We all individually have our time to be like God. It varies for everyone. There is no rushing this. It will move naturally as the people of the world allow it.

    To paint everyone in a corner or a kingdom, when we do not know each spirit’s progression nor status is superfluous. We cannot judge. We cannot judge. We do not know where they are at in the spectrum of progression.

    The Church will take care of itself. We must take care of ourselves.

  5. Hi Tim,

    I am of a like mind as you, in terms of supporting efforts to introduce people to the LDS Church with all its failings and losses at this point. I am, however, concerned about those same people developing stumbling blocks similar to the ones I had (and went through a rather painful process in removing with The Lord’s help) before they will see and know what was really restored through the Prophet Joseph. But perhaps that is part of the journey for each of us, no?

    My husband made an interesting observation yesterday at Sunday church. I don’t know if this true for many wards, especially here in UT, but it appears there are quite a few who come for Sacrament meeting and then leave. Relative few are staying for Sunday School or Priesthood/Relief Society/Primary. I’ve no idea if this includes a good portion of families with children and youth, or if it is just the older folks who do not have chillens. We feel the loss of power, and in many instances the Spirit, in the LDS Church, especially on the local level. I do not go often, but when I do I am left parched and empty. The fellowship among friends is still there to an extent (and this will vary greatly depending upon personal circumstances), but there feels such a loss of Spirit for me.

    I sense that white field ready to harvest (D&C 4) is filled with people who are awakening to The Lord everywhere, realizing they have been experiencing a drought without The Living Waters. I don’t know how many inside the LDS Church will make that realization, but I do know there are many without who are devoted to The Lord and love Him dearly. I believe some will be called to work within the LDS Church while others, at some point, will be “called” now and in the future to reap from that ready field. Where will that wheat be gathered in to? A place? A church? A group? These are questions I am now pondering of late.

    I suppose I am also of the opinion that these fellowships springing up in various places are still very much struggling in many ways to become unified and cohesive with The Lord. The idea of “gathering” an individual or family to them is not my first thought because of this.

    On the issue of central recorder, I have had it in the back of my mind always, wondering who it was but never being in the right circle to know anything. I do not feel it is a non-issue. I feel like The Lord has seen some things of concern and is using it to test us all. Will we simply go along with what Denver has suggested, or will we turn to The Lord and ask His will in the matter? I’m seeing more than a few that are of the “follow the prophet” flavor, i.e. follow Denver in all he says to do, and it concerns me. It has been interesting to see the responses that hint at disobedience, missing the mark, causing a problem where there isn’t one, etc.

    I didn’t see both of the website posts concerning the CR until yesterday. I was happy to see a suggestion that the matter be put to a vote by the whole, but was left baffled by the first where a particular individual was nominated by Denver. And he did that even after saying he didn’t want to be involved and there had been three individuals who had expressed interest in the position. Why didn’t he just post the three names (after allowing them a chance to decide if they really wanted to put themselves out there for a vote)? Wouldn’t that have made it all much easier to decide? Interesting how The Lord orchestrates things to show us where we are.

    Now I am out of sorts and do not plan on voting because there is just the one name, and even the very idea of doing a vote is making some unhappy. My personal preference is to have a woman in the position (for reasons I won’t share at this point), but the only woman whom had been nominated has withdrawn her name. I was saddened by that. I have been praying and asking to understand The Lord’s will in the matter, and my desire for a woman to hold that position has not changed, but I hardly see a point now to a vote. My own voice isn’t going to make any difference methinks. So, I’ll just move along now.

    1. Lynne McKinley Orem, Utah

      Lori – Here is something I posted in another place about the recorder controversy and why your vote actually does matter to all of us:

      Is it possible that Jesus Christ may actually have a preference for who it is that records the names in His Book? Shouldn’t we ask Him?

      Shame on all of us here for spouting off on our own opinions without first humbling ourselves in prayer, seeking to know who our Lord wants to preserve and keep His records.

      The current recorder controversy is about much more than just the election of a “clerical” position in The Restoration Movement.

      It is one of many coming significant spiritual tests of the very people who say they want to become Zion.

      The only way to actually become Zion is to seek the will of God in all things and become aligned with that perfect way of thinking and acting.

      If we actually believe that our little rag-tag group of Zion wannabees is the nucleus of that which every prophet of God has seen in our day, then the record of those who come to Christ and are baptized here and now is AT LEAST as important as the brass and gold plates were. Maybe more:

      ….And there shall in no wise enter into it [Zion] any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life. Revelations 21:27

      I sincerely believe that the list of post-Mesa baptisms is the Lamb’s Book of Life. Literally. Whoever possesses it, keeps it updated, and protects it really does matter. That person can expect to be tempted, tried, and persecuted – and if I may say, their very life will be in danger every moment that they have it in their possession.

      Those solo record keepers of the Book of Mormon plates were not publicly known, and the records were thus protected. But this record keeper must of necessity be publicly known, and therefore becomes a prime target of the adversary.

      Whoever is chosen by common consent must not only be willing, but must have already been tested in the fire, because more fire is certainly coming in regards to keeping and updating the precious baptism list of courageous souls.

      All these jarrings and contentions are a sad example of just how far we have to go to even get up to a baseline of “common consent”. How in the world can we ever become one heart/one mind if we won’t now agree to individually pray to get a unified witness on this?

      It is absolutely imperative that we each humble ourselves in prayer on this topic, receive a clear answer through the spirit, and come together united, without the cancer of residual grudges and disagreements spreading and infecting our forward movement.

      Our brother Denver Snuffer did us a favor by proffering the name of someone he feels can withstand the blows of the adversary and keep a protected record. I trust Denver’s vision in this because I have learned to trust Denver to continually seek to do the Lord’s will, not his own.

      Nevertheless, I have been willing to humble myself in prayer to obtain my own answer as to whether or not Keith Henderson is the Lord’s own choice for baptism recorder. I beg you to do the same.

      I agree with the point made that there needs to be a set cut-off date for any kind of vote, if only to keep this issue from bleeding the spirit out of everything we have managed to build thus far.

      Our vote does matter for we will be judged by it in the actual issue before us: a demonstration of our desire to finally become a people unified in God’s will and captained by Christ, or to continue to be a people leaning on our own understanding, and failing to build Zion.

      This is the War in Heaven for the next round. According to the gift of Agency, there are now, as there always have been and always will be, essentially four choices available to us;

      1. Celestial: actively seek to know God’s will, come to an understanding of that view, align with and support His thinking with all heart and mind in word and deed, taking a valiant stand for Truth from the source of all Truth. Become Zion in each individual decision on each individual issue.

      2. Terrestrial: choose Christ (baptism) but then in any further decision affecting the group abstain and remain apart, intentionally avoiding taking a stand. Opt out of common consent issues affecting the whole and therefore cut ourselves off from becoming one with the Zion-hearted whole.

      3. Telestial: choose to follow a man, or a group, or an idea or a course of action without seeking God’s will; wanting someone other than God to provide the information we need to make a choice and to tell us what to do and think and how to choose.

      4. Cast out: intentionally refuse to pray and seek the Lord’s will in any matter, instead using intellectual tools and then determining to do it our own way, which we consider to have more merit than whatever God’s way may be.

      The matter of a recorder for the Lamb’s Book of Life is now before us. I pray for us all to seek and become unified with God’s will in this decision.

      Still weeping for Zion

      Lynne McKinley

      1. Lynne,

        I admire your passion. Do you know what is really cool? Zion is going to be redeemed when it will be redeemed, and it will be redeemed by God.
        I know that the LDS people have been trained to have extreme guilt complexes. It all started with falsehoods like, “well you guys just didn’t try hard enough, and that is why it didn’t work out.” Or ideas like, “if we would have just had more faith, so and so could have been healed, or an angel could have come, and so on and so on.”
        God foresees all, and has planned for all. He is the author and finisher of Zion.
        When God called Enoch or Moses, He made them instruments sufficient for His power to flow through to get the task done. This will be the case again. God has power to do His own work, and He doesn’t fail, and His work never is hindered, or slowed, or changed. It is always perfectly accomplished in every case.
        Zion was not built up with the early saints because God never intended it to be, and it wasn’t an option. Neither did he lead people along to have that belief, rather the people deceived themselves into thinking that Zion was a possibility in that time.
        God has perfect foreknowledge of what will happen. So let’s not fret or threat about how important the minutia is, but worship in awe of the Creator’s work perfectly going forth every single second of every day. Such was the case before Denver Snuffer was born, such will be the case in the future.

  6. That was an inspiring post for me, Tim. Thank you for articulating my sentiments too! Though the LDS Church has cast me far and away, as well — and I will never again be a Mormon — I loved (and still love) her and appreciate all the good I experienced by her.

    I am (and will continue to be) troubled, however, by how to interact (or not interact) with the LDS Church as it pertains to my family, inasmuch as I am personally forbidden from stepping foot on any LDS Church property worldwide. (Does that mean I can’t visit City Creek Mall? Temple Square? Or my old stomping grounds at BYU? Can I not drop off my children at Ricks or the MTC? Apparently.) And I’ll honor that — though I think doing so more fully damns those who impose this execrable burden on me and my family. They create a burden for me…and then do not move one of their little fingers to lift it themselves! (But by saying this, I’m waxing “bitter” and not full of the “sweetness and light” that pervades your post…which I admire and do not wish to detract from in the least, so I’ll desist.)

    It’s a strange world we inhabit now — once mixed with “Jewishness” and Christianity…or “Mormonism” and Christianity (or, as the Mormons would say “the cult of Denver Snuffer”). The LDS don’t have to be the “enemy” of those who follow Christ. I encourage my children to be LDS. Maybe I can find a way to yet encourage others to join the LDS Church, too, if they want to. There is still much truth to be found therein.

    I only hope whomever I recommend to join can find their way to Christ and not become a two-fold child of hell who persecutes the saints, thinking they are doing God a favor.

  7. Thanks for your thoughts on my post Tim.

    I didn’t find it necessary to list out quotes from blogs or emails or elsewhere. I think the sentiments I was countering are very common and I didn’t need to respond to any particulars. I’d rather not drag anyone’s name through the mud and say, “look how wrong they got it!”

    But since I feel it is a valid criticism, I’ll give a bit of logos to my argument. For example on your ‘A Few Notes from the Mesa Lecture’ post, you wrote: “Denver referred to another visit with The Lord on May 1st 2014. He said the Lord told him a few things about the Church. He said he was one of the “least of these” through which the Lord accomplished a great work. He said it had been completed. Section 121 applied to all Church leaders. He proclaimed the First Presidency lost their authority at the last General Conference.”

    Not to “drag [your] name through the mud,” my friend. Admittedly, you were there in the moment and this is how you interpreted what was said without the advantage of a transcript or recording to go through the lecture again. Again, you might be right in this interpretation. I’m not saying one way or another. In my post, I just tried to stick to what Denver actually said and create an interpretation which is as lenient and merciful as possible. What you send out will be restored to you.

    At the same time I noted with the case of the Book of Mormon, many people can accept it while they neglect reading it carefully. Because of this, their interpretation is off. They are closed to alternative explanations.

    This is so common place even within this movement, I don’t think I need to cite sources. But let’s take for example Adam Hutto’s comment above. He may be 100% right. But he doesn’t actually respond to what is brought up. 2 examples of statements he made: “so let’s not sit here in some sort of daze and pretend the church is anywhere near fine” and “Snuffer is right….don’t waste 3 hours at church.” First, no one is claimed the church is anywhere near alright, but without reading carefully that’s how he interprets what was written. Neither Tim nor I suggested advocating the church unequivocally. Rather we should advocate for the church in the same sense that Christ does. Words matter a great deal. Second, he truncates what Snuffer said in lecture 10. It’s true that he said don’t waste another 3 hour block, but it’s clear he didn’t say you can’t go to church for 3 hours. (What Denver actually said: “You should not waste another three-hour block of time fiddling around with nonsense, because you don’t have permission from God to do that. Preach the principles to one another. If you spend time in LDS meetings, as some of you will do, then study your scriptures, comment with the truth, and improve your moments with the Latter-day Saints. p.33-34) Again, words matter a great deal.

    There has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand.

    People want quick, easy answers. Not a careful, nuanced approach.

    God bless all of you on your journey.

  8. Michael said “The changes which will come will threaten the restoration. Everything would be lost in the future, if steps weren’t take(n) in preparation now. Again this act is not reactionary.”

    More than not reactionary, it is an understatement. The changes, along with defamation of the Lord’s messenger, Joseph Smith, do threaten the restoration.

    This is the concern. Of course we could advocate (pray for, be concerned about, etc) like we would any other group. Contrary positions are taken to clarify truth, for the most part. A necessary step, since most of us are extricated, or in the process of extricating ourselves. We must strengthen our understanding of truth and release ourselves from the traditions that would obscure truth. Progressing from being a “good member” to a disciple of Christ is helped by spending time with the Lord and learning what HE expects, not what the ward, bishop, or church leadership expect.

    To offer platitudes like “there is still much truth” is to blithely omit concern for the truth lost that helps us regain Christ’s presence. Those who obscure the path from those seeking God and His truth should not be surprised when the Lord, and those who seek Him, try to call them to repentance as he did the Pharisees. Calling attention to whited sepulchres, like any call to repentance, is an act of love.

  9. Response to Michael T

    Hi Michael. Great comments. I feel I owe you a bit of an apology. I didn’t wait for your response to see if you were okay with my public assessment of your post. I apologize. I agree there was no need to list examples of the rhetoric. I have seen it, I have heard it. So has Carol.

    In fact, that is one of the main reasons she is loath to take seriously what others are saying about the new restoration movement. Carol is sensitive to the very things you pointed out in your post. When she reads or listens to Denver or those who comment on his writings, she hears condemnation. It is personal to Carol.

    To her, those who are participating in this movement online are denigrating her ancestors and relatives. She is related to Heber C. Kimball, Emma Hale, Ezra Taft Benson, Oliver Cowdery, Gordon B. Hinckley and President Monson. So you can imagine how deeply the blood of LDS tradition runs in her veins.

    Polygamy is also part of her heritage. In fact, the LDS Church is more than a tradition, more than a way of worship. It is life to her and all she has ever known, being Utah born. I, on the other hand, come from a Southern Christian heritage full of pastors and educators.

    I went back and looked at the Mesa lecture for that specific quote since it was such a shock to Carol and, I suppose many others who were there. I didn’t realize at the time Denver was reading from his journal. He said, “Section 121 is a warning to church leaders. It is addressing the powerful, not the powerless.

    “It is addressing those who occupy the seats of authority over others. Only those who claim the right to control, compel, and exercise dominion, are warned against persecuting the saints, who believe the religion and practice it as I did from the time of my conversion. My excommunication was an abuse of authority.

    “Therefore, as soon as the decision was made [to excommunicate me], the Lord terminated the priesthood authority of the stake presidency and every member of the High Council who sustained this decision, which was unanimous. Thereafter, I appealed to the First Presidency, outlining the involvement of the 12 and the 70. The appeal gave notice to them all. The appeal was summarily denied.

    “Last general conference, the entire First Presidency, the 12, the 70, and all other general authorities and auxiliaries, voted to sustain those who abused their authority in casting me out of the church. At that moment, the Lord ended all claims of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, to claim it is led by the priesthood. They have not practiced what He requires. The Lord has brought about His purposes.”

    Loved your quote from Joseph: “There has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand.” You’re right. Words are important. God bless us all in our approach.

    Michael’s latest post:

  10. “Thank you, Adam Hutto. That was well spoken, with restraint and even generosity.”

    I do want to say thanks for seeing it for what it was. and I do want to say that it is nice that someone else grasps just how insane things are going to get. It seems people love to say this is the last days and the world is wicked while at the same time holding onto a notion that they can keep on doing things as they have always done and be fine.

    “I mean if there was absolutely no use for a church, ”

    it is not that church has no use, it is that church tends to devolve into the false traditions of men and thus becomes useless.

    “Yes there will be a captain moroni type figure. No doubt God is preparing many such people, but God has not begun with that yet.”

    perhaps….but if and when He does begin it….will we recognize it? or when this captain Moroni appears will be mock and laugh at him because he will plainly tell us of all our hideous sins that brought the church under condemnation in the first place? It seems we all wait for a prophet while ignoring just what a prophet does. He hits us over the head with all of our sins in great detail often at great personal risk. Or are we so disaffected with the LDS church, but want someone like a quite and gentle Denver Snuffer who is not going to lead and is not going to hit us over the head with harsh reality.

    God raises a variety of messangers and depending the situation determines just what kind of person appears for the role. These last day prophets are going to need to withstand a great deal of fire and brimstone, so I suspect when they appear they will not be in the business of mincing words. I suspect our cores will be hit and we will all be troubled greatly for their words will bring damnation to our souls if they are not heeded.

    “They are there because for whatever reason God has placed them there”

    we have free will. God doesnt neccessarily place anyone anywhere. though He can.

    “Every religion is acting as a vehicle to help people raise their awareness and look to God”

    the scriptures plainly state otherwise.

    “He will save all of us eventually”

    Nephi teaches otherwise. Joseph Smith probably taught otherwise as well. God is not saving everyone. YOu want to be saved? Go and work it out with our Maker. The reward is Godhood and the price is great.

    I agreed with a lot of your other points though.

    ” but it appears there are quite a few who come for Sacrament meeting and then leave. Relative few are staying for Sunday School or Priesthood/Relief Society/Primary.”

    Ive seen that in my years of the church too

    “I suppose I am also of the opinion that these fellowships springing up in various places are still very much struggling in many ways to become unified and cohesive with The Lord. The idea of “gathering” an individual or family to them is not my first thought because of this.”

    I agree. Many are probably struggling because of the very posts on this thread. look at the scattered thoughts. some preach doom and gloom, others are more optimistic, and others still are struggling with lifelong memberships to an organization and some like the main blogger here have a wife that still attends. this is why disrupting traditions of men is so hard because they get so entrenched into your soul. As Tim notes, church and Mormonism is his wife’s heritage, and she doesn’t want to abandon it. That makes it a tough choice, yet we must be willing to toss it all on the alter. It is a difficult choice, one that will trouble your soul.

    ” I’m seeing more than a few that are of the “follow the prophet” flavor, i.e. follow Denver in all he says to do”


    “Is it possible that Jesus Christ may actually have a preference for who it is that records the names in His Book? Shouldn’t we ask Him?”


    “Shame on all of us here for spouting off on our own opinions without first humbling ourselves in prayer, seeking to know who our Lord wants to preserve and keep His records.”

    Yes Shame on us.

    “It is one of many coming significant spiritual tests of the very people who say they want to become Zion.

    The only way to actually become Zion is to seek the will of God in all things and become aligned with that perfect way of thinking and acting.”

    Yes. oh my yes.

    “It is absolutely imperative that we each humble ourselves in prayer on this topic, receive a clear answer through the spirit, and come together united, without the cancer of residual grudges and disagreements spreading and infecting our forward movement”

    Again and urge to seek God’s will on matter. PREACH ON…..seriously folks dont cease your crying to God till you get an answer. enough of this give up in 2 minutes garbage.

    “Nevertheless, I have been willing to humble myself in prayer to obtain my own answer as to whether or not Keith Henderson is the Lord’s own choice for baptism recorder. I beg you to do the same.”

    I love how you did not tell us your answer.

    “Zion is going to be redeemed when it will be redeemed, and it will be redeemed by God”

    Zion will not come to pass unless humans take an active part in building it. I know mormons and christians have this ridiculous idea in their heads that someday somewhere a prophet will magically appear and say “COME TO Zion EVERYONE!!!!” and all will be well. no that aint happening. we want zion? then lets go out and build it. Zion cannot be built unless people preach of Christ, invite others to Christ, and probably not until miracles start reoccurring. there is not a date on the calender for Zion to appear unless the people called to bring it about actually do just that.

    HUmanity has a choice….we can either work with God in this very thing or sit on our collective butts and wait for God to say “OK YOU LAZY BUMS….HERE IS ZION!!!!”

    “if we would have just had more faith, so and so could have been healed, or an angel could have come, and so on and so on”

    yes if we DID HAVE MORE FAITH….we could have been healed or seen an angel. FAITH IS REQUIRED!!!!

    “well you guys just didn’t try hard enough, and that is why it didn’t work out”

    thats precisely what happened….they failed to try hard enough.

    “When God called Enoch or Moses, He made them instruments sufficient for His power to flow through to get the task done”

    but they only got that power by having FAITH. Moses roams around for many many many years before showing up and becoming Moses. Moses needed time to get faith.

    “Zion was not built up with the early saints because God never intended it to be, and it wasn’t an option”

    It was an option. God told them to build that temple knowing full well they wouldnt, but told them too anyway. they had that choice.

    “Neither Tim nor I suggested advocating the church unequivocally”

    it was a response to the topic title

    “but it’s clear he didn’t say you can’t go to church for 3 hours.”

    Ive actually never heard the whole quote or at least i cant remember it all if I have. that said thanks for posting it. all that to say…I agree with his point even more, but I agree with mine too. Don’t waste time in a 3 hour block, if you are going to be there, great SNuffer makes a fantastic point. Comment with the truth, dont fiddle around with nonsense. But on the other hand if you are sure God has said the church is corrupt and you can get no value there….don’t encourage people to attend to it. encourage people to be rebaptised, take sacrament with wine, repent, etc. By knowing that the gospel in the church is pollutted and corrupted and still silently sitting there….you do waste 3 hours, you do fiddle around with nonsense and you do fail to comment with truth.

    I made have stated it differently than SNuffer, but I think we are echoing the same point.

    “There has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand.”

    I speak from much personal experience and even outright stubborness on my part and sympathize with the book of mormon authors. I have been setting up at God’s request a certain message to my family, and it is finally time for them all to hear it and it in the course of setting it up. it truly is like yanking teeth to get people to seek their own answers from God. people just don’t want to do it. they are all stubborn blind fools. no one on this planet save it be a few want to get their own answers.

    “To offer platitudes like “there is still much truth” is to blithely omit concern for the truth lost that helps us regain Christ’s presence. Those who obscure the path from those seeking God and His truth should not be surprised when the Lord, and those who seek Him, try to call them to repentance as he did the Pharisees. Calling attention to whited sepulchres, like any call to repentance, is an act of love.”

    bingo, we have a winner.

    1. you know… I got up, I felt impressed to share this post. As I was making it known to my parents that the time for my dream about the family to be fulfilled is nearly here….I wrote an email and despite i merely echoed a lot of what i said before, it still shocked them greatly. having said that I did them the honor and replied once to some concerns. I will share a part of that reply as it is relevant to ever ongoing discussion of getting answers to prayers and seeking The Lord’s will.

      I’ve no idea if there is a censorship filter here, if there isn’t great. if there is i’ll post a version without the cussing, but I will say the cussing adds to the overall point I am making.


      Any other questions… God and figure it out. Many things I was vague on solely so YOU WOULD do that. Take time….ponder it out(again I said think on it for weeks). Seek your scriptures. Seek and pray. Damnit all….DEMAND AN ANSWER. DON’T STOP PRAYING TILL YOU GET AN ANSWER. DAMNIT ALL WOMAN YOUR ETERNAL SOUL IS ON THE LINE…..WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING BEFORE THE LORD as commanded in scriptures. SHOUT WITH ALL YOUR SOUL FROM THE VERY BOWELS OF YOUR SOUL FROM EVERY FIBER OF YOUR BEING AND DEMAND TO SEEK HIS WILL. DEMAND HE ANSWER YOU. If He doesn’t? pray and pray again until He does.

      If he doesn’t ask what you lack still. Ask to have your faith increased. Ask to have help with your sins. For petes sake you stubborn woman I call mom…..stop needing spiritual lectures from your son. Why is the son having to teach the parent? SAY FUCK IT ALL, DAMNIT ALL, GOD I NEED TO TALK TO YOU, TEACH ME YOUR WAYS. TO HELL WITH THE WORLD. I NEED YOU MY ETERNAL MAKER. FUCK THE WHOLE DAMN WORLD….I DON’T CARE ABOUT THEM….GOD TEACH ME. Go with such stubbornness and determination that God cannot help but answer.

      You know the day before I sent this first letter, I was in class, and I stood up against circumcision.I was laughed at and mocked to no end. In that moment I had a true epiphany like no other. I Realized if I can do that for circumcision I can do that for Christ. Yes I may from time to time screw up, but nonetheless I can do that. My testimony is up there with the best of them.

      As I was finishing the letter, I did see what appeared to be Christ in a far off distance encouraging me to send this. And I recall the a few days before 2 or 3 times Satan did make another lovely visit or 3 and I Recall quite clearly it was because I was close to something… these whirlwind of thoughts I realized…..I just do not care anymore. In fact I said plainly to Satan that time, “Why are you here? You cannot kill me, Jesus Christ forbids it” and he left.

      The world has hated me from birth and tried to kill me. It has despised me ever since. Satan has personally been my tormentor. I could tell you of things that would shock you into a coma probably… this moment I realized. I just did not give two shits anymore. I just don’t. Come what may. Christ if I must, I’ll make a blind fool of myself for Your Namesake.

      So you my stubborn mother….go make yourself a blind fool for His Namesake. Cast off all fear, all doubt, and by golly just go for it. I don’t care if you hate me for this, I don’t care if my entire family wishes to see me dead for this message. In fact when all is said and done to hell with my friends too if they cant stand who I become. God wants it sent so it will be sent. I don’t care if you despise me nor even comprehend this. It would be nice if you did comprehend this, but either way it makes no difference. It is not my message, it is God’s. so if to deliver this message I must cause you to curse my name and despise me, then so be it. I just do not give a shit.

      This is God’s message, and if I must be ridiculed because of that, so be it. I don’t care anymore. What more can anyone else do to me? I have seen hell and I am still alive. You like to say Hutto’s are stubborn…..well stop being a stubborn Hutto and go and get your own freaking answer. I really cant put it anymore plainly than the last 2-3 paragraphs.”

      Shortly thereafter when I went send….I could hear it clearly “So, you’re willing to make a fool of yourself for my Namesake?”

      Yes I’m quite sure that offer is going to be taken up on its going to make me ask what in the world did I just agree to do. that said….I really just do not care anymore.

      1. Lynne McKinley

        My dear, brave brother Adam Hutto. You are right. You speak truth. You say it differently than most of the genteel folks who visit and post on Tim’s site, but the truth shines through. I’m honored to meet you. If today is the day you have chosen to be baptized and you are anywhere within drive time of Orem, Utah then please message Tim who will message me and I’ll drop everything to be there. You are the kind of man I want for a next door neighbor in Zion. Don’t ever stop caring – it is precisely that gut wrenching care that will get us to Zion. Great love to you.

        1. Lynne McKinley

          PS It takes great restraint on my part to delete expletives when talking about what’s going on. Especially all the new age crap about all religions are good and will lead you to God, who is actually inside yourself. Distractions and counterfeits abound.

        2. well i appreciate the kind words quite a bit. you certainly have much more charity than I’ve acquired. the guy who was going to do the baptism had things come up which is just as well tuesday became a busier than usual day for me. we are scheduling it for thursday around 10. We are doing it at Saratoga springs if I am not mistaken. So yeah if you wish to come thats fine by me. the more the merrier.

          Just email me at

          as for swearing….I’ve come to the conclusion that the scriptures mean this by don’t use profanity. calling you an idiot is profanity and worse than saying those two people are fucking aka those two people are having sexual intercourse. which of the two do you think is actually offensive to God? Furthermore do we have God in such a little box that we presume He can make the heavens and the earth but trembles in fear at the sight of a mere cuss word? Me thinks we think God a shriveling coward like unto a little child that sees the slightest speck of offensive crap and goes off and cries to mommy.

          yeah I speak with a bit of anger at times, but I think an anvil named TRUTH needs to be dropped on our collective heads. I know because that same anvil has hit me a few 5435345 times.

  11. I’d add one last thing…..God made all things. He made us to poop, to pee, to throw up, to cough, sex to be a transition of nasty fluids, birth to be a hideous bloody mess, dogs to lick their balls to clean themselves, when it comes to the briefly mentioned circumcision comment we are made in his image in essence our fantasy and obbession in america with robbing boys of their foreskin means we do pervert God’s design of us which is in HIS IMAGE that is to say OUR MAKER has foreskin. He made the cat to cough up hair balls, the cockroach to be disgusting, some breeds of spiders to eat their mates and sharks to kill each other in their mothers womb in a battle of survival of the fittest.

    God is not offended by this. He is not offended by any of this for HE PUT IT THERE. the foul stench in the bathroom after an upset stomach….does not offend Him as HE PUT IT THERE.

    so people really need to cease thinking we need to hide our humanity from The Lord as The Lord is the one that put it there in the first place. I think He is far more offended by the fact we are vain enough to think we can hide this from Him in the first place.

    sometimes I kneel to pray and after a few minutes my stomach starts churning letting me know i must use the bathroom…..I highly doubt God is mad when I say hold on if I dont go now its going in my pants. He made you to poop, He knows when you poop, Hes not offended by this.

  12. Adam

    When we hang out just remind me not to plan on eating for a while I don’t think I will have an appetite:) I hope you have a great experience at your baptism. God bless.

  13. The God I worship does not rely on the weakness and frailties of men.

    1 The works, and the designs, and the purposes of God cannot be frustrated, neither can they come to naught.
    2 For God doth not walk in crooked paths, neither doth he turn to the right hand nor to the left, neither doth he vary from that which he hath said, therefore his paths are straight, and his course is one eternal round.
    3 Remember, remember that it is not the work of God that is frustrated, but the work of men; (Doctrine and Covenants, Doctrine and Covenants, D&C 3)

  14. I fully disclose that I was on the cusp of re-baptism a couple months ago. I talked to my bishop and was ready to be excommunicated. I told everybody. The bishop, my family, no one could convince me otherwise. Thanks to Denver Snuffer and John Pontius, I can better understand and apply the Gospel in my life; additionally, I can more visibly see the problems we face. Denver Snuffer knows the Gospel better, teaches the Gospel better, and likely lives the Gospel better than the majority of the members of the church. So, easy decision, right?
    I had to search the other side of the picture myself–honestly and directly; and one of the things I perceived was a spirit of rebellion and fault-seeking towards the church. Regardless of the church deserving of this, this really did hinder me. What if *that* is part of the test for many of us? I wonder, who was likely a better and more skilled teacher? Brigham or Sydney? Who taught better, Brigham or Sydney? It may even be said that Sydney was likely a much better revelator and visionary than Brigham. Regardless of this all, “Rigdon felt his [excommunication] was done without proper order.” Not only this, but “Rigdon refused to attend [his] trial after which he, in turn, likewise excommunicated the members of the Twelve.” (Quotes used from Wikipedia)
    What we need is long-suffering, patience, unity, and love towards members of the church; not another division. We can carry on with the Spirit of the Gospel that Denver Snuffer taught us so well; but we are in great need of outstanding members to stay with the Church that Joseph Smith restored and continue on towards the goal of Zion. Forcing our views is neither wise nor charitable. It’s obvious there are faults in the church. Pres. Uchtdorf acknowledged this publicly. But perhaps this “Old Boat Zion” really will take us to “the brink of hell” and then on to Zion. It is the church that delivered us all the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    1. My friend,

      I can say with all solemnity that the church delivered none of the gospel to me. I used to think the church deserved some credit, but now I know as well as I am writing that only my Creator has ever given me the gospel. Not one whit has come from any man or organization. Such will be the case with the bringing forth of Zion as well.
      I agree God wants some people in the church though for sure, if only to learn and teach others the church has no power to lift one person, but that it is Jesus Christ, who is no respecter or men or organizations, who has power to lift the world.

  15. Adam: Thanks for visiting my blog and leaving your comments. I pray the Lord’s blessings upon you as you are baptized this week. May you feel of His love and may His spirit enlighten your heart and mind. Would that more people were willing to display the passion you have put in your comments in such a public manner. Surly the Lord will accept your passion for His cause in these latter days as you learn and serve.

  16. “We each report to the Lord and can accept truth from whatever messenger we deem to be a true messenger of God.”

    That kind of chaos in religion has been going on for centuries. That’s why there are a lot of sincere people who have come up with conflicting worldviews. And various groups among these people seeking to live the Gospel more purely using the teachings of people like Denver Snuffer will also end up with various conflicting views on what the application of Gospel principles really means.

    When the Lord sends prophets and organizes His Church (and inspires the leaders to correlate Church teachings worldwide), enlightening truths are taught and His Saints can be unified in their understanding of God’s plan for us.

    1. Correlation? God’s Plan? I believe this may be the works of man that the Church bends over backwards to claim it is His plan. The Catholics are unified, the Baptists are unified and sound believing Buddhists are unified. There is unity in factions all over the world. How would you know that Lehi was a prophet at the time 600 BC?? He was not unified with the church at the time. Jeremiah was thrown into prison and Abinadi preached against the unified system of King Noah. True religion as James says is to visit the elderly and the widows and take care of the poor. Correlation by man has always fallen away from the Lord’s restoring. Never in history has this not happened except in Enoch’s and Melchizedek’s time. History transcends all that you or we believe. Mankind is consistent; they seek to go their own way. This restoration, included follows history and Nephi, Ezekiel and Isaiah all announce it.

      We are all welcome to commune with whatever organization we deem. But no organization brings unblemished truth to the world. Only God, the Holy Ghost and your inner spirit may know of truth, and bring it to you. No one proclaiming they know truth has resonance. Only the Holy Ghost can write it upon your soul. All else is weak and less than enlightening. Good luck in your venture and may you be uplifted with your course.

    2. Religion is a personal matter, Steve. It is between God and man. I can’t believe you’re defending correlation. That program has done more to stifle gospel study than any program in the history of the LDS Church. Anybody who dares to raise a point outside the officially accepted list of questions in the lesson manual is immediately castigated by members of the class.

      Get a clue. Brigham hijacked what the Lord attempted to restore through Joseph. The restoration was put on hold for four generations until the death of Patriarch Eldred G. Smith – We are living in exciting times when the Lord has sent a messenger and a witness that the heavens are open for business. We do NOT need anyone to stand between us and the Lord and our personal salvation.

  17. “What I mean to say is that it was still the means to preserve the Book of Mormon, etc”

    I agree with this completely. Of the many faults in the church, and however worthy it is of condemnation, it has been the way in which the book of Mormon and really virtually all of joseph smith’s work that we still have has been preserved. In that sense anyone who claims the book of Mormon is divine, owes that preservation to the modern LDS church. HOWEVER, that book has been preserved, its not going out of print now, and countless copies are out there so if the LDS church falls, the work is still there.

    In that sense LDS missionaries still have a certain value to them….however this value is utterly lost the moment they step inside the church building and they start taking the sacrament the wrong way. The church might show people the book of Mormon, but it then botches everything else. This is similar to other churches which Mormons love to claim teach the bible but pervert it.

    As far as a prophet goes….this is one the greatest write ups Ive ever seen on what a prophet is…well I have others but they are on the computer and not online(well maybe they are but I don’t recall where I found them now.)

    “Adam: Thanks for visiting my blog and leaving your comments. I pray the Lord’s blessings upon you as you are baptized this week. May you feel of His love and may His spirit enlighten your heart and mind. Would that more people were willing to display the passion you have put in your comments in such a public manner. Surly the Lord will accept your passion for His cause in these latter days as you learn and serve.”

    Appreciate the kind words. I will say I enjoyed reading your posts leading up to your decision to officially leave the church.

    “When the Lord sends prophets and organizes His Church (and inspires the leaders to correlate Church teachings worldwide), enlightening truths are taught and His Saints can be unified in their understanding of God’s plan for us”

    Well sadly the problem is people treat lightly what they already have, they ignore 99% of they have so why is God going to bother giving us anymore? Give us more so we can ignore that too? Seems silly. People have in their heads that a prophet is going to appear like the pope or the general authorities and from some authorized source…..I say go and find me places in the scriptures where that is true and ill find you 10 places where it isn’t for each case. God picks the obscure and the strange. So the saints aren’t going to get unified until they actually start paying attention to what they already have.

  18. I do believe now that Denver Snuffer has fallen.

    I had the following dream on November 29, 2012 that I recorded:

    I dreamed I was on a journey. At first I was in a car with friends whom I did not know. Then I saw the woman that was driving purposefully crash. After the wreck, I left on my own and searched again for this woman who departed after the crash. I wanted to be with this woman. Then I caught her with another man in adultery. I then gave up on her because of her sin.

    I’ll end my dream there.

    I have continuously read Denver’s messages almost for the past 3 years. I recently rediscovered this dream of catching him in a spirit of adultery/apostasy. I understand there is an apostasy from the Gospel, but his is an apostasy of rebellion, fault-seeking, and leaving the church (but never denying the truth); much like Sydney Rigdon. His pattern matches Sydney’s as I’ve said in an earlier post. I fear Denver may end up the same.

    Much like in Joseph’s dream, the apostates would always seek to claim his inheritance from the church. The apostates would fight over it, but it was found without the foundation of prophets and apostles. They “mock at authority”. But the apostates can have that “old barn”. D&C 121:16-25

    What if the Brethren really are right to stay with the old ship Zion? Why must it be such a test to not lift up the heal against the Brethren and stay in the boat? Why must we always lose our greatest saints? Because they, like Paul, taught we are to follow them (1 Corinthians 4:16; 2 Corinthians 1:24)? Because of my family’s faithfulness over many years, I was able to inherit the knowledge of how to seek the light of the Gospel.

    As the pattern of apostasy always happens, so did Denver Snuffer and many before him like Sydney. In Isaiah 22, there is prophesied an “evil servant” that is replaced by “a faithful and wise servant”. I say wait a little longer until the servant will come to put in order the church. Those “found to have apostatized, or to have been cut off from the church” will not find an inheritance (D&C 85:7-12). Much like the barn in Joseph’s dream.

  19. Brother Snuffer, why did you have to follow so closely the path of Sydney Rigdon? The church is always left with the weakest of saints already. Why must there be another division? The church is yet coming out of the wilderness and going through purification (and more to come), despite our condemnation. Stay with the old boat and teach us poorly saints.

    There have still been others after Brigham who have had an audience with Christ, including Denver Snuffer! President John Taylor, President Joseph F. Smith and David B. Haight. Perhaps most recently, Elder Packer from his testimony in the April 2014 General Conference; proof enough the priesthood in the Church is valid and alive, despite even Denver’s condemnation against it at that very time he gave his testimony.

  20. Isn’t is interesting that the words of “condemnation” came from the leaders themselves and from scriptures….hmmm…

  21. It is also interesting to note how often personal dreams are referenced as if they were universal scriptures. Odd.

  22. “Elder Packer from his testimony in the April 2014 General Conference; ”

    is this the talk?

    i admit to curiousity and looked through, unless i missed it he never bears witness of having seen The Savior, which sort of negates his special witness status.

    having said that assuming you truth seeking Bryan you must ask yourself hard questions.

    why is our sacrament different than the scriptures?

    who was the prophet that claimed if miracles cease all is in vain? and no the barely functional priesthood blessings are not miracles.

    if you want to drink wine for sacrmament why is that a gross offense?

    take count how often testimony meetings mention Jesus, the number is appallingly low if you actually do this test. sometimes its actually 0. yes Ive done this and i know others who have done it.

    the scriptures without doubt mention the church being condemned….so how condemned are we? is it worth sticking it out? are we savable in the church or are like the ancient jews or the church abinida preaches against? if we are. the church has no value. even still.

    how long can we keep doing basic things so wrong and remain as Gods chosen people?

    why Snuffer is supposedly the final straw…i’ve no idea. perhaps its the same reason God takes His sweet time doing half the stuff He does.

    but see tough questions MUST BE ASKED.

    you cannot sit there and blindly pretend the church is in no trouble. but go ahead and you are proof of this as well, try and tell a mormon their church is in trouble or isnt true. you’ll get no end of shocked looks. mormons outright cannot fathom, nor comprehend the fact that their church has any problems, they cannot conceive that they are anything less than THE ONE TRUE CHURCH, they cannot fathom that they are under condemnation and have been for nearly 200 years. its a sad mindset to have.

    even if Snuffer is a cold hearted liar….lets pretend that fact is true….you still must grapple with the scriptures that speak boldly of our own condemnation….so how you reconcile that? how do you fix it? is a condemned church worth anything? should we not perhaps change course? All Snuffer did was shine a light on this thing, and i’ll be honest his passing the heavenly gift book is perhaps one of the harshest looks at mormonism but is written in such a kind way that the church was a blind fool not to use him as their official historian. so how do you fix a church that cant take criticism, and has a people glued into one way of thinking? you really cant except to break off, a fact most of us really dont want to do. i don’t enjoy breaking off 30 years, i dont enjoy telling my parents of 50 years in the church about this, Snuffer admits he hates doing this and as said countless times he’d love to be a member again.

    i really get no joy in saying everything you grew up in is a lie. and aside from a couple of exceptions today with people i met, i got that same sense too from most people.

    so why in the hell are we doing this if we actually lack enjoyment from it and don’t actually want to do it and would actually much rather be mormon?

  23. “’For we saw him” (D&C 76:22–23). Their words are my words.”

    His words are clear enough.

    I understand your frustrations about the church. I’m not ignorant of Denver’s words. He even now declares much truth. Denver has more knowledge than most members. The church is suffering because of lack of knowledge. We need people like that to stay. Like Denver Snuffer said, “Joseph Smith suggested the church needed to stay together.” But if a church can be condemned, and yet one can still receive those blessings as Elder Packer has testified around that time of April 2014, then so can members today. Don’t get so wrapped up in the law; you are only justified by the spirit. Just don’t get wrapped up in the spirit of apostasy. Denver’s excommunication mirrors Sydney Rigdon’s.

    Joseph Smith said, “Do not watch for iniquity in each other, if you do you will not get an endowment, for God will not bestow it on such”. It possibly goes the same for watching iniquity of the church.

  24. I was very conflicted for a while… I was a faithful church-going woman, and was given DS books to read and they resonated with me and my desire to become a pure vessel increased, my temple attendance, etc. But then a shift happened … I no longer wanted any man to come between me and Jesus, or Mother and Father. I had to let the dead wood fall. I’ve not resigned from the church, but I am no longer active. And I understand both sides of the argument regarding staying faithful to the church or following a supposed Witness of Jesus. I have concerns with both … Yes, the church puts out a great missionary force, but it doesn’t do any good if those members join and then go inactive … And did you know that the Jehovah Witnesses have more conversions than LDS and those conversions stay active? And one of the reasons, I believe, is that some of these other churches who are having incredible conversions and miraculous stories only preach about God, whether God the Father or Jesus. Catholics worship the pope, LDS worship Joseph and the leadership (and now the disaffected members worshipping DS). We pat ourselves on the back thinking we are such the covenant people when in reality some other churches are doing a much better job in spreading the word of Jesus, then we are. Evangelism is alive and growing in the world, but not in the LDS church. We are not only losing new converts, but return missionaries and those who have been members all of our lives. While there is much awry in the LDS church, there is also much good. The arguments promoted by the followers of DS re: change of ordinances, and not being truthful in the history of the church, etc. are valid. But DS is so concentrating on Joseph’s teachings instead of the teachings of Jesus, which I find troubling.

    So what is a follower of Jesus to do?

    I have come to believe that all churches have truth and error, and that the general masses that are faithful to Jesus, and not the leaders of their so-called religion, or any leader, will be part of the Church of the Firstborn. I no longer think it is a church that we belong to, nor the ordinances done, that qualifies us for the Church of the Firstborn. It is the purity of our hearts, our love for mankind, and foremost our love for Jesus and our desire to serve Him, the Master. He will call many to serve in the LDS church, or to serve outside the LDS church, or to serve in other churches. Does it matter where He calls us? It only matters that we know His voice and heed the call. It is our commitment to Him, and not a church that will define our standing before Him.

  25. Why no longer active? I have yet to come across anyone at church to know of Denver Snuffer (I’m on the East coast). Maybe he fulfilled his part and fell away. There is much work to do in the church, but why ditch the saints? Wouldn’t we at least still work with them, even alongside them? I don’t believe God has ditched the LDS church, and I believe He is still working with it as I’ve stated before. Elder Packer’s testimony is evidence enough.

    Teaching true principles of faith and repentance will enable enough of these slumbering saints. I’ve seen it happen as I testify to them in my meetings. Is it not still true that this is still the church Joseph restored? It has lived this long, why give up now? There is evidence enough of a type of apostasy since Denver’s fall. His knowledge is greater than the members, and what a dangerous situation that is in his apostasy; a strong delusion that would make, indeed. It’s interesting that our covenants are attached to the church, but we are willing to break those covenants we made. Maybe it’s not about the membership, but our covenants. We made that covenant in front of God and angels, yet we are willing to walk away. Zion is still the last stop of this old ship. It will be set order.

  26. oh you are from the east coast too? yes im not over there now but I was born and raised on the east coast.

    that said…..what do you suppose we do then Bryan?

    let’s take personal revelation out of this question for a minute.

    we all claim the scriptures and we all claim Joseph Smith is a prophet, perhaps the greatest since the 1800s. so having said….we study our scriptures, we learn things, we see all is not well. we even decide to raise awareness of it and even confess in church that we drank wine with sacrament. and even confess we practiced the lost art of rebaptism. admitting this two very basic things will get us excommunicated yet we find them plain as day in our church history of joseph smiths time and in our scriptures.

    so what are we to do? ignore this stuff? never mention it? considering baptism and rebaptism and sacrament are two of the doctines of Christ that Christ calls HIS doctrine, should we just ignore this?

    i suppose yes it is only a matter of time before i get excommunicated, and i willfully did that. but should i have just ignored these two very basic principles? and really DS and all like him, should we have all ignored these things?

    what would you have us do Bryan? in light of a church that will cast us out or admitting and bringing this stuff up, what would you have us do? the scriptures warn plainly against following the traditions of men over the commandments of God, so what would you have us do?

  27. I’ve been where you are. The church is not telling you to do this. Denver Snuffer is telling you to do this. If Elder Packer can receive Christ, so can you while maintaining your church membership. Feed the sheep in the church as well as everyone else.

  28. Elder packer never said he saw Christ, he only claims to know He is real, which Im going to be blunt, anyone and their mom can claim that. An apostle should have a much more substantial witness. it should truly be special all that to say, DS claims to have seen Christ as just as valid as anyone else’s claims, but even still DS makes the claim, Packer does not.

    and you failed to answer my question. what would you have us do in the face of a church that would cast out it’s members for making a sincere honest attempt to follow the words of Jesus? sacrament, baptism, tithing, and other things? tell me, i sincerely want to know.

  29. I posted it earlier, but here it is again:

    “’For we saw him” (D&C 76:22–23). Their words are my words.”–Elder Packer, April 2014

    I don’t know why you’re asking me. I’ve already done those things in the church. So have you, I’m assuming. Again, don’t get wrapped up in the law of the commandments, for you are only justified by the Spirit. Just don’t get wrapped up in the spirit of apostasy.

  30. must have missed where you said that,

    that said….so Packer claims it and DS claims it. how are you certain one is lying and the other is not?

    and yes the Spirit justifies but commandments DO MATTER.

    youve never really said how you reconcile modern LDS church with the scriptures outright contradicting the church, again unless i missed that. which is my point, what would you have us do in such cases? scriptures command one thing, church another, how is one to reconcile such contradictions?

    1. I’m only here to warn of Denver. This is where my faith is taking me, and I feel led by the Spirit in doing so. How you decide to keep the commandments is up to you. I’m not a great writer, or great at explaining; but I’ll try.

      I admit that in the end, we follow God and seek His spirit; but do we still follow someone in the process? In other words, are we going to choose the Brethren or Denver in this process? It would be hypocrisy for those who follow Denver to say we choose to follow the Brethren. How many would be re baptized, have sacrament with wine, etc., if it wasn’t for Denver? Joseph Smith authorized sacrament of water. We have an authorized baptism by a commissioned church; but in the end, we are justified by the Spirit. That is the whole point. Following someone else’s suggestion of keeping the commandments won’t make it any different.

      John Pontius didn’t feel it was in his work to do what Denver was doing, either. John passed away faithfully in the church. It’s interesting how much he would have known, and yet know the condition of the church; but he never raised his heal against the brethren, and how many in the church were better because of his faithfulness? So it is with all of those who fell away from the church. We need them just as much to stay in the church. Again, maybe it’s not about our membership, but our covenants which are connected to the church.

      It’s interesting to note John’s words:

      “But, we [Snuffer and Pontius] have spent a few hours discussing the subject of criticism of the Brethren and the Church, whether the criticism is true or not. Simply stated, he and I do not agree on this subject. I do not criticize the Church simply because it isn’t my calling. I don’t fault the Brethren because it doesn’t change anything. I wouldn’t publish something outlining whatever flaws I might detect merely because I most assuredly do not see the candle as extinguished.

      “Whatever flaws exist are irrelevant in my opinion. They are irrelevant because I personally have enjoyed a full measure of blessings the gospel promises, without being limited by whatever flaws exist – and frankly, it seems, so has Denver.”

      I wonder what brother Pontius would say now.

      See what the scriptures and Joseph Smith say of criticism, judging, fault-seeking, etc. It is a spirit of apostasy, and something we should stay away from. In his first lecture, Denver told of a woman named Monty. Maybe she rightfully warned him, “You beware of pride.”

      Joseph Smith spoke of Paul’s people to be on par with Enoch’s. If they still needed to follow a prophet then so do we, know matter your spiritual stature. Maybe there is something to the Brethren holding these mysterious “keys” in guiding us. Paul taught:

      16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.(1 Corinthians 4)

      I actually believe it was the Corinthians whom Joseph Smith called Paul’s people. Paul appeared to preach them doctrine beyond the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost. Yet, Denver seems to think this is a devilish doctrine that will corrupt the restoration. But rather:

      24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand. (2 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians 1)

      I think, rather, it’s the spirit of criticism that has always been an enemy to the church and the restoration. Isn’t that more obvious? That has always been the case in the restoration.

      I was so quick to follow Denver that I neglected to search the other side–to stay in the church. I needed to search both polar opposites. I used to be angry going to church because of all the false teachings. Now that I’ve distanced myself from Denver, I’ve taken the good from him and left what I believe was a spirit of apostasy in me. I now have a greater love for the members. Being in church doesn’t irritate me anymore. I just have a greater compassion and love for the saints, and a better determination to teach them more with long suffering. It was my trouble with the criticisms that kept me moving forward.

      Again, the apostasy of Denver Snuffer is like Sydney Rigdon’s. Like Sydney, Denver “felt [his excommunication] was done without proper order.” Like Sydney, Denver “refused to attend [his] trial”. Like Sydney, Denver “in turn, likewise [essentially] excommunicated the members of the Twelve” (quotes from Wikipedia).

      So, are we going to choose to follow men still claiming an audience with Christ (like Elder Packer)? Or, are we going to choose to follow someone that criticizes (which has always been a hindrance to the restoration)?

      I believe criticism and the spirit of apostasy is what we should avoid. Unity is required to build Zion; but criticism, rather than building up the saints by teaching and long suffering, will not bring about Zion. I still see many faithful and humble seekers in the church that could use that. Division seems to be the answer for criticism.

      1. I meant to say:

        Yet, Denver seems to think this is a devilish doctrine that will corrupt the restoration (following the Brethren/prophet).

  31. I know at this point I’m just a gnat on the wall. But I have this left to say:

    For those who think Denver is the one mighty and strong, he is not. He so declared himself that he is not that one:

    “Leave it for God to decide when we have done enough to justify Him moving His hand again to restore that which was lost. What need is there for a family head if there is no family to organize? When He does that, it will be through ‘a descendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood, and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign, and for the gathering of my people in the last days.’ (D&C 113:6.)”

    This means that he was not to put the church in order. This means he is not an authorized servant. This also means, I believe, that he is a fallen prophet; guiding others where he is not authorized. Stay rather with the church that Joseph Smith restored.

    My last plea, which is probably the same as many of yours, is to turn yourselves fervently to the scriptures. Turn away from blogs that teach doctrine for those with itching ears. Abase yourselves and stay with the flock.

    I was part of the FaceBook group LDS Remnant. I was ready to be baptized. My wife did not want me to be in that group because she thought it was toxic of criticism. Frankly, I was ashamed at some things that were said as well.

    When speaking to the bishop, there was nothing he could teach me, say to me, or do to make me change my mind in my efforts towards re-baptism. However, I promised my wife that I would honestly seek the other side of what I was doing. I needed to search out why staying in the church would be necessary. Part of receiving the gift of faith is in searching. Opposition in all things, right? I wrote an email to a friend I had made a few years earlier, and what he said made me consider; just consider. That was all that was needed to spark something inside me. I opened up to my wife in a whole new way. The Spirit poured out on me. I was more open towards her, was more loving, was more humble. My marriage would have changed, and I almost damaged it. I left the group. Then I felt to post what my friend wrote me on that FaceBook group, without comment. I had to convince my wife that was all I was doing to rejoin. When I did so, I was shocked at the reaction I received. I don’t think it lasted but an hour or two before my post with my friend’s words was deleted entirely. My intention of seeking truth was questioned, among other things. I didn’t defend myself. Not only was I rejected in my own church, but also in the group I was planning to join through baptism. I do know that nobody, no group, no church is perfect. I try to be merciful to whatever reactions against me. I despise the corrosive effects of judging and criticizing. Now I’m a loner, rejected on both sides. It takes courage to go to church, but I actually feel love towards them. God then began teaching me why staying in the church is what I needed to do (despite all its weakness), and how following Denver was not the right path.

    The rest of my dream that I shared earlier? I was walking towards the mountains with my fellow saints that I knew in the church. I had a hood on my head to hide my face. I was ashamed for something. Now I know why. I almost abandoned my friends. I can only say now to all you who choose to *follow* Denver Snuffer to simply consider, as I once did.

    I now leave this with you all, in all my weakness, knowing I have a clear conscience.

  32. hey, i see your replies, but i do not have time to get to them right now, i’ll get to them later at some point when I can sit down and really look at them.

    but you know school = the death of me.

    1. Let me inform all readers of my unworthiness. I have just read LOG’s post, “Try the Spirits”. I am guilty as charged. I ask forgiveness from all. I don’t ask that you think I am right, or that I am good in any degree.

      I would ask, however, that you (anyone) merely consider my post. I put it together quickly, but I left myself bare to all, exposing all my weaknesses. Again, please consider my words and forgive me my sins and take what truths are there. Please go to God.

      1. Denver once stated, “The truth is always about the underlying message. Does the message cause you to awake? Does it cause you to arise?” Please oversee my sins and find the truth that is needed.

  33. minorityofone

    The truth is all about the underlying message. I don’t like that. Too ambiguous. I think Denver Snuffer is more like a Lyman Wight than a Sidney Rigdon myself 🙂


    Thanks for your willingness to put yourself out there and testify. Your dream could have so many interpretations. I will share a dream an active neighbor of mine had and rehearsed to me. There was great panic in the salt lake valley. A volcano was about to erupt. The spirit told her to get up the mountain as quickly as possible without even packing. She and her family quickly headed to the mountain and began hiking up. After she got about a third of the way up she ran into the “leaders” of the LDS church. They were all watching as the people in the valley began to be killed by the lava filling up the valley. The spirit told her to “get higher.” She told the LDS leaders that they needed to go higher and they all started laughing and saying they were plenty safe where they were, and that she should stay there with them. Quickly she and her family went up the rest of the way and followed the spirit instead of the men telling her she was safe. Well of course the people who didn’t get higher were consumed by the effects of the volcano. So anyway this is another dream I heard with a really easy interpretation. The point is, wherever you are, follow the Spirit. If the Spirit is telling you to stay in the church then God bless you my friend. Just stand ready always to follow the spirit rather than men. Thanks again for sharing.

    1. As far as I understand, the leaders have been warning us for the past almost 200 years.

      Lorenzo Snow said, “Now, I do not say, when we come back again to our subject, the principles of the United Order, that this might be our position with reference to our obedience to it. But I would say this, however, that if these principles of the United Order were so important in former days, and the Lord by some thirteen revelations or more, has made them manifest to his Saints, and the results of disobedience were such as we see, why should we not consider them of some importance at the present time? And would the Lord find fault with the people, if the Latter-day Saints would strive with all their hearts to conform to them? And would we not feel ourselves better prepared to go back and build up Jackson County, the Center Stake of Zion? Would we expect to go back unless we complied with the law in all things, and in consequence of disobedience to which, the people were expelled from that country?”

      To say we were not warned seems highly unlikely. Even if the leaders are at fault, we should exceed their righteousness. I don’t think I would blame the leaders for the duties that revolve upon the members.

      In this life, following a man is part of the process. You read the scriptures, right? It was written by men like you and me. I assume you followed Denver in getting re-baptized.

      We both know that that is not the end, though. We seek the voice of the Lord in everything to guide us. But men are part of the process.

      1 And now I, Nephi, cannot write all the things which were taught among my people; neither am I mighty in writing, like unto speaking; for when a man speaketh by the power of the Holy Ghost the power of the Holy Ghost carrieth it unto the hearts of the children of men. (2 Nephi 33)

      I invite you to check out my blogpost in the link above. I hope you find some better points in what I’m trying to say. I also apologize for any redundancy. I put it together fairly quick. But when it’s all said and done, if you follow the Spirit, then who am I to question?

      1. EvenTheLeastSaint

        No one is going to live the United Order in a telestial state. Telestial man is not capable of it. When the prophecy in Ether 4:7 is fulfilled, then we can start talking about having no poor among us.

  34. EvenTheLeastSaint

    Bryan (Mar 28) Said: “I posted it earlier, but here it is again:

    “’For we saw him” (D&C 76:22–23). Their words are my words.”–Elder Packer, April 2014.”

    Bryan I know the talk by BKP that you are referring to. I’ve commented on it before on another forum. I am sure that President Packer was not saying that he had seen the Savior.

    This is what President Packer said, “Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon recorded the following after a sacred experience, ‘And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him — THAT HE LIVES, for we saw him.’ THEIR WORDS ARE MY WORDS. I believe and I am sure Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God, THAT HE LIVES.”

    He repeats only the part of Joseph and Sydney’s words that are his, “that He lives”. He doesn’t repeat or make the words “for [I] saw Him”, his words, instead he says, “I believe and I am sure …”. I just can’t imagine that someone after seeing the Savior would use the phrase, “I believe and I am sure Jesus is the Christ” I’m sure that anyone who has seen Christ in vision or in person has that knowledge conveyed to him or her without even the need of words. Their would be no need for belief because one would know.

    As a formality, here is a scriptural reference:

    Ether 3:19 And because of the knowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the veil; and HE SAW the finger of Jesus, which, when he saw, he fell with fear; for he knew that it was the finger of the Lord; and HE HAD FAITH NO LONGER, FOR HE KNEW, nothing doubting.

  35. Here is the article:

    I don’t mean to get into a discussion on semantics, but to me it seems pretty clear. It goes in this order:

    “’For we saw him’ (D&C 76:22–23). Their words are my words.”

    Nevertheless, there are more reasons to stay with the Church, and not follow Denver Snuffer. We can follow Christ directly, but sometimes the process is through a man. Which man in the process is up to you. I invite you to read my blogpost.

    1. EvenTheLeastSaint

      Bryan, I would love to visit your blog. I’m sure that you have posted your the link here previously, but would you mind posting again below. Thanks

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