The Necessity of Being Baptized Again

VenturaHarborMarinaParkI am being baptized this Sunday morning in the Ventura harbor. I am 57 years old. You may ask why this is necessary if I have already been baptized when I was eight years old. I am not being baptized into a church. I am not currently a member of any church. This ordinance is between me and the Lord, a symbol of my desire to be obedient to words delivered through His servant. Here are a few reasons why I have chosen to be baptized again, at this late stage in my life:

1) I want to show the Lord I accept the message delivered by his servant.

2) I believe the words used should be “Having authority given me of Jesus Christ …”

3) I believe the person who baptizes should pray mightily to receive power to baptize.

4) I believe the LDS Church has lost the commission to baptize. It needs to be renewed.

5) I believe the ordinance of baptism for the living should be performed in living water.

6) Denver quoted the Lord, saying, “This commandment has been renewed today.”

Everything that follows is taken from the tenth lecture delivered last week to support these points. I knew I had to act upon the message delivered as a sign of faith and in order to show the Lord I wanted the promised blessings. I confirmed with the Lord in prayer he has accepted of my preparations as found in D&C 20:37 of offering Him a broken heart and a contrite spirit. He has promised me additional blessings I cannot share once I act upon what he has commanded.

Source: Preserving The Restoration, Denver Snuffer 9-9-14 Lecture 10 Mesa, AZ

Baptism is a Sign of Acceptance

“Baptism has always been required from the days of Adam until the present. Baptism is always the sign of acceptance of what God is doing in each generation. If He acts again now (and He is), then we need to recognize that and respond. Baptism is a mandatory sign of penitence; turning and facing God, and then walking in a new path. From the days of Adam, it will continue through the end of the millennium. Whenever there has been believing people upon the earth, they have always been invited to perform the ordinance of baptism as a sign of their faith.”

“…true religion, when it is present on earth, always exists as a community of believers. Community is required. If we don’t have a community then we cannot be willing to mourn with those that mourn. We cannot comfort those that stand in need of comfort. We cannot stand as a witness to one another of God at all times and of all places. (Mosiah 18: 9) We cannot bear one another’s burdens that they may be light, (Mosiah 18: 8) as is required by the Gospel and by the covenant of baptism. None of this can be done without fellowship between believers. – page 12

Use the Words Given by Christ

Christ gave the baptism prayer, word for word. This is in 3 Nephi Chapter 11, beginning at verse 19. “And Nephi arose and went forth, and bowed himself before the Lord and did kiss his feet. And the Lord commanded him that he should arise. And he arose and stood before him. And the Lord said unto him: I give unto you power that ye shall baptize this people when I am again ascended into heaven. And again the Lord called others, and said unto them likewise; and he gave unto them power to baptize.”

Christ did not touch them, He said to them, “I give you power to baptize.” Although the record is incomplete, these disciples in all likelihood had previously been ordained. But Christ was renewing His church when He came. All that was needed to obtain the power to baptize was (and is) for Christ to tell you. – page 13 “…and in my name shall ye baptize them. And now behold, these are the words which ye shall say, calling them by name, saying: Having authority given me of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.  Amen.” – Page 16

Authority Received From God in Prayer

How then does the authority to baptize come? Well, once John the Baptist came and laid his hand on Joseph, we have had a practice of continuing to lay hands on one another to confer Aaronic Priesthood, and we ought to continue to respect that tradition. But before any of you baptize any other of you, get Christ’s “word” for yourself through the Spirit. It is the same thing Alma did in Mosiah chapter 18. If you go to Mosiah chapter 18, verse 12, before he baptized, Alma “stood forth in the water, and cried, saying: O Lord, pour out thy Spirit upon thy servant, that he may do this work with holiness of heart. And when he had said these words, the Spirit of the Lord was upon him.”

He got the authority to baptize by the Spirit. If you are going to use the priesthood to perform a baptism, no matter what the Church has told you, no matter what quorum leaders and respected others, including your own father perhaps, have taught you, before you do so, ask God to give you the authority. Get the “word” from Christ through the Spirit, just as Alma did. His example is in the scriptures to teach us the way. We have lost it, and need to reclaim it. If you get power to baptize, you get it from Him and you are not dependent on someone else. But get the power from Him. Power is required. It must come from Christ. The pattern must be followed. – Page 14

The Church has Lost the Commission

John the Baptist when he restored the authority, in Joseph Smith History, verse 69 said: “which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness.”

The Gospel of repentance is turning to face God. Baptism by immersion is for the remission of sins. John’s declaration does not say that this authority will not ever be taken from the church; it says it will not be taken from “the earth.” It was restored to remain on the earth. No matter what happens among those that choose to abuse one another, it needs to be preserved by a faithful few so that it does not cease from the earth. It is still here, though it has been much neglected and it has been much abused. But with you, renew it, using Alma’s example. – Page 14

Performed with Authority and Power

After Alma repented, but before he used any authority to baptize, he asked God to give him power. God, seeing penitence on the earth, respected it, and poured out His Spirit upon him so that Alma could baptize with power. The proof of that was found not merely in what Alma experienced with the Spirit empowering him to perform the ordinance, but also in the effect the ordinance itself had upon both Helam and Alma who himself went into the water at the same time. The Spirit was poured out upon them. Renew the power to baptize in this same manner. Alma and Christ’s disciples got authority from Christ’s “word” spoken to them by the power of the Spirit.

Likewise, we need to have a renewed community. Not an organization, but a fellowship. Not a hierarchy, but a group of equals. The community needs to be renewed. Men who have been ordained already, should renew this in the manner just described in the example of Alma. Have a community of believers. Be accepted by them. But before acting ask God to pour out His Spirit to give power. – Page 15

Living Ordinances in Living Water

Continuing then with what Christ said in 3 Nephi Chapter 11, verse 22: “And he said unto them: On this wise shall ye baptize; and there shall be no disputations among you. Verily I say unto you, that whoso repenteth of his sins through your words, and desireth to be baptized in my name, on this wise shall ye baptize them—Behold, ye shall go down and stand in the water…”

I would recommend if at all possible that water for a living ordinance be performed in living water. I would not perform this in a font constructed by man. I would use the things God created. You are trying to connect to God. Use what He created. I recognize that there may be circumstances where that becomes impossible. … I would recommend when you go stand in the water that it be living water. – page 16

This Commandment is Renewed Today

I am telling you in the name of the Lord that commandment is renewed again by Him today, to you. This is His command recorded in the Book of Mormon, translated by Joseph Smith through the gift and power of God, and confirmed again today! “And there shall be no disputations  among you,  as  there  have hitherto been; neither shall there be disputations among you concerning the points of my doctrine, as there have hitherto been. For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another. Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another.”

Do it in this way. If someone disputes and says, “They ought not be doing it, and you ought not be doing it,” leave it alone. Don’t fight. Don’t quarrel, but invite, persuade. If they are not persuaded, let them go. If you invite and they will not come, let them go. If you entice, if you entreat, and they say, “We will not hear your entreaty,” then let them go. There is no need to harbor ill will and to fight with people. – Page 17

Like Unto the Waters of Mormon

Update: Carol and I went to scope out the exact spot for the baptism. We decided Harbor Cove Beach would be better than Marina Park Beach. It’s a short walk and the water is calm behind the breakwater. We have been there many times in the twelve years we have lived in Camarillo. It is about 15-20 minutes from our house. There will probably be a few families there Sunday morning about 11am when we arrive for the baptism, but that’s OK. After two days of searching, the spirit confirmed to me this the right spot.

For those attending the baptism in Ventura this Sunday 21 Sep 2014, we are meeting at my home first for the sacrament and a prayer meeting at 10am. Address: 2481 Balmoral Ct, Camarillo CA 93010. We will then drive the 15-20 minutes to Harbor Cove Beach. You are welcome to attend the baptism as a witness and are welcome to join us in the prayer meeting at my home first.

We don’t expect more than a dozen participants and witnesses. This is not being done as part of an organized community. I asked someone to come baptize me and a good brother who happened to be approved by a Utah community volunteered since he is in LA this weekend. I am grateful and took him up on his offer. Others heard about it and decided to join us, some from far away.


93 thoughts on “The Necessity of Being Baptized Again”

  1. If you happen to be in the area next Sunday, you are invited to attend my baptism. We are meeting at my home in Camarillo at 10am. My address is in the “About Tim” tab of this blog. We are then going to the harbor, about 15-20 minutes away. There will be several baptisms besides mine. God bless.

    1. I wish my family and I could be there. I’m glad you will be with friends. We will be thinking of you that Morning. Dave

  2. Tim

    I have often wondered in the past why the church changed the wording from authority to commission…
    This is my question. Obviously Jesus was speaking to the Nephites in a language other than English. If someone wants to say this ordinance in Mandarin or Finish, what words must they use? Would they use the words in their current Books of Mormon? How can we be sure whoever translated them into different languages translated then correctly.
    On my mission the closest translation was often debatable and at times there were no words that had the exact meaning. So I guess my question is how you can think the words are that important? Besides that, if they were that important then how come I (and no doubt countless others) have felt the Holy Ghost in the moments of someone’s baptism during LDS baptisms? Obviously denver is saying that the church had the authority to baptize just months ago, but yet it didn’t matter to God back then if they used different words?
    I find it hard to swallow. This much I do know, God will ask us to be baptized when the Church of the Lamb is restored. I do not doubt your spiritual experience. You were probably told that after you were baptized, such and such blessings will occur…. The real question is if this baptism you are going to be doing will be the last? I am happy things are happening and moving forward though. God bless and I pray you have a wonderful experience during the baptism.

    1. Good point minority. I wonder how many languages there are in which “authority” and “commission” are the same word. Any RMs want to chime in?

      It’s important to be exact in the wording of ordinances, but words are by their nature imprecise.

      1. “Habiéndoseme dado autoridad de Jesucristo” instead of “habiendo sido comisionado por Jesucristo” — the first is copy/paste from 3 Nephi and it translates almost directly to the same as English.

        It is interesting to note the original wording in The Book of Revelation 1 is the same as 3 Nephi 11. It was changed though by 1835 when D&C was published.

      2. I don’t KNOW, but these are some of my thoughts.

        the Book of Mormon was translated by the power of God into English, not other languages (at least I’m unaware of any revelation stating the contrary.). and by the time the 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants was published, the church had already been put under condemnation for not taking seriously the commandments in the Book of Mormon and their minds had been darkened. Perhaps there is a connection with being put under condemnation from the Lord to the word “authority” being replaced with “commissioned”?


    2. When I baptized people in France while a missionary there, the words spoken were “Ayant recu l’autorite de Jesus Christ, je vous baptise…” The translation of this is “Having received authority from Jesus Christ, I baptize you…”. The concern about “authority” vs. “commissioned” seems like a distinction without a difference to me.

    1. Thanks, Tim. I understand (though don’t agree) with the argument that the church has lost the commission. I meant as far as not using the wording as revealed through Joseph Smith:

      “The person who is called of God and has authority from Jesus Christ to baptize, shall go down into the water with the person who has presented himself or herself for baptism, and shall say, calling him or her by name: Having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.”

  3. Nonrandom set: That’s a great question, worthy of an explanation from somebody who knows, because frankly, I don’t know. To put it bluntly, I think you’re asking, “Why does the wording in the Book of Mormon trump the wording in D&C 20?” I looked at the revelation books from the Joseph Smith papers, and that’s the way it was recorded from what I saw.

    1. The 1833 version of The Book of Commandments tracks exactly the B of M language. The ” commissioned ” language first appears in the 835 D & C. See page 53 Section 24 :53 of the Book of Commandments

  4. Well I can’t tell if denver is saying that in the Book of Mormon it was right and in doctrine and covenants it was wrong, or if he was saying one was greater than the other, in which case he is implying that God has given him greater authority than joseph smith had.
    Personally I think it was a clever way to point out that the LDS church was doing something differently than Jesus taught in the BoM, but didn’t clarify exactly what the difference was. If I have been commissioned by God than that automatically transfers authority by the one who commissioned me to do something.

    1. I think the whole point is to get approval directly from God, and not have to petition anyone else but our Maker to perform baptism. There is a big difference from having authority transferred by the one who commissioned me to do something and having God grant you such authority. Which would you prefer? I prefer the latter.

    2. Minority,

      I’ve reviewed the Joseph Smith Papers, and here are my thoughts:

      The revelation that is now known to us as D&C 20 included in the original text the language from 3 Nephi “Having authority given me…” and was later revised to the now common “Having been commissioned…”

      While I believe the commission was legitimate with the organization of a church and all that, and therefore the change probably acceptable back when it was made, at this moment in the restoration I think we should return to the beginning and use the words exactly as given by the Savior. Just my thoughts.

      1. Thank you

        That would make a lot of sense if that is the case. I wonder why The Lord would be ok flipping back and forth though with something that seems to be only semantics. I have been in plenty of ordinances where a person sincerely did their best and said things technically wrong but I felt the Holy Ghost during the ordinance.

    3. I’ve likewise got some experience with performing ordinances in obscure languages — in my mission language, there were at least 4 different possibilities for baptismal prayer wording (2-3+ of which had been “official” at one time or other. D&C still isn’t available as the final word on the subject), each slightly different, but all true to the substance of the prayer. When I baptized people who wanted me to use their native language instead of English, I rendered my own translation of the prayer as I didn’t like any of the existing combinations very much – some of the possibilities include “received permission…” or “being authorized…” for the beginning, and for “baptize you” there were phrases like “wash spirit” or “perform the water ritual/ceremony/ordinance.” The approximate translation that I used went something like “Having power from Jesus Christ, I take you and perform the water ceremony, in the name…” It was quite nice – the two witnesses didn’t speak the language, so I just had to tell them ‘yep, I totally said the right words.’ I do wonder how those that don’t speak English should proceed, but I suspect it’d be somewhat similar to what I did as a missionary; of course using 3 Nephi as the source text instead of the current D&C.

  5. All of this hinges on Denver’s message being true and from the Lord, every bit of it. One can argue that “having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you…” was a word change made by Joseph Smith and by the Lord – and all of Joseph Smith’s revelations, including his translation of the Book of Mormon hinge on his being a true messenger and sent by the Lord. Same position. The original Articles and Covenants (D&C 20) says “And the manner of baptism & the manner of administering the sacrament are to be done as is written in the Book of Morman.”, i.e. “having authority given me of Jesus Christ, I baptize you…” See here:

    Joseph changed it or at least approved of its change in the 1835 D&C – see here, verse 22:!/paperSummary/doctrine-and-covenants-1835&p=89

    He was also the translator of the Book of Mormon, if one wants to argue semantics. If Denver is a true messenger and His message is from the Lord, then it is as he said, because the Lord said it. That is the only question that matters: are he and his message sent from the Lord? If the answer is “no”, then he is a pretender and is damned by his own declaration here:

    DS, Ephraim, pgs.49-50

    If you will receive it, faith in Him comes by hearing the word of God.(Romans 10: 17) Not by a pretender, not by someone guessing, not by someone offering up their theory of how the scriptures ought to be understood. Faith does not come by hearkening to someone citing you a bibliography. Faith comes only by hearing the word of God delivered as He would have it delivered, by whomever it is that He may choose to deliver it.(Romans 10: 14-17)

    Romans 10
    14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
    15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
    16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
    17 But I say, have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

    If you receive God’s word sent by someone He sends, then you might have faith, and that too in the Son of God. Then you also might receive Him. But if you will not, if you will harden your hearts, if you will blind your minds, if you will not receive what He offers from His mouth in your day, then you do not have faith in Him. You will fall short of that faith required to become His son and His daughter.

    It is that way, it has always been that way, it will always be that way. There is no other test.

    Therefore, either I am a liar and you ought to forget everything I’ve said, or I have been sent by someone greater than I am. If I have been sent and you reject and quibble over the things I declare to you, it is at your peril!

    It ought to be that way. I ought to be damned if I’m a pretender, and I ought to be damned and rejected by God if I’m saying things about which I know nothing! But I bear witness to you I know what I’m talking about. I have no reason to lie to you. I have no reason to pay to reserve a place to speak to you, and ask nothing of you but to listen. It requires a sacrifice to do what I am doing. I have no other reason to do this than to tell you the truth. Joseph Smith testified to these things and I am come as a second witness. Therefore you now have two proclaiming the same doctrine.

    The LDS Church does not tolerate being baptized outside of its authorization. It is grounds for excommunication according to its handbook. So one would be unable to openly participate in one these faith communities, as proposed by Denver, without being excommunicated. Many, like Tim, are sacrificing their LDS church membership to participate and receive rebaptism. This is no small sacrifice. According to LDS theology, this is damnation – resigning or being excommunicated is considered losing all one’s blessings, priesthood, sealings, the gift of the Holy Ghost, etc., i.e. spiritual death.

    Tim, how do you KNOW? Or are you acting on belief or faith only? Please share.

    1. “The original Articles and Covenants (D&C 20) says “And the manner of baptism & the manner of administering the sacrament are to be done as is written in the Book of Morman.”

      What really impresses me is that, we are parsing word definitions written by the hand of a man who, although very inspired, can’t spell Mormon correctly.

    2. Isn’t the choice to join the LDS Church also based on faith and belief? On the first Sunday of every month I hear folks say they “know” based on a spiritual witness.

  6. Tim, you know I love you, but I have to give you a hard time on this one.

    It has barely been a week since this last lecture and there has already arisen a question as to why it is so important to use “authorize” instead of “commission.” You don’t even know the reason why even though it one of your reasons for receiving a new baptism?

    Denver made it clear that he was not going to be a leader like Joseph Smith. He said that he would refuse to do so – he would not be made into a correlator. Yet, basically all of your points as to why you are getting re-baptized and this entire blog post are based on his words.

    I believe that this fellowship movement to preserve the restoration is a bit too flimsy.

    But I’ll say this, you will definitely have to be close to the Holy Ghost and the Savior to be able to pull this movement off – no doubt about it.

  7. Tim, I have only one suggestion. Do it the next day on Monday. That’s the equinox. Moroni always came to Joseph on the Equinox. It is a day of power and would serve you well to perform your baptism then, preferable at sunrise.

    1. I thought about that. I prefer to not inconvenience the man coming down from Utah to baptize me. He was already planning to be here Saturday, then went out of his way to stay an extra day to accommodate my request. For that I am grateful.

  8. There comes a time in every man’s life where he must act on faith. We know that the witness comes after the trial of faith. This much I KNOW, having heard the voice of the Lord declare it to me (we can have an offline conversation about discerning the voice of the Lord if you like):

    Me: Lord, Denver said the commandment to be baptized has been renewed, here and now, TODAY (last Tuesday 9-9-14). Is that what I need to do and did that command come from thee?

    Lord: Yes, Tim. That’s why I had Denver state it the way he did.

    Me: I do not know anyone who has authority to baptize me.

    Lord: Put out a request on your blog and in the forums and groups to which you belong. I will have someone contact you.

    I followed the Lord’s instructions and received three calls or emails within hours of posting the request. Two of those who responded hold the higher priesthood. The one I chose happened to be in town this weekend. He has been sustained by a community to perform ordinances.

    Me: OK, Lord. I have done as thou has asked. Now what?

    Lord: Wait until after you are baptized. It will be revealed to you.

    Brethren, say what you want. This is how it went down. It is an act of faith, relying on the word of the Lord to me in private prayer.

  9. Greg

    Your question twisted what I had said. Of course I would rather receive authority from God rather than be commissioned by men, but I would rather be commissioned of God, rather than receive authority from men.
    What I said is that to be commissioned directly by God is equivalent to being given authority from God. Everyone ought to know that you better have authority directly from God before performing an ordinance. That would apply no matter what church you are in.


    I don’t if your reasoning is sound. Being “sent” by God does not mean everything you teach is true. For instance, denver could have been told by God to preach to others that they should come unto Christ, and he could have interpreted that to mean a lot more than it did.
    Just because joseph smith was a prophet and I have a witness by the Holy Ghost that he was, that in no way means that everything he taught was true. God would never ask us to put our complete trust in one man. We are supposed to only trust in God (Godhead).

    1. I’m not trying to “twist” your words. I think its more about not clearly understanding one another than “twisting” words. My intent is not to mince words.

      This is what I mean by having God grant you authority. Mosiah 18: 12,13, 21 “… saying: O Lord, pour out thy Spirit upon thy servant, that he may do this work with holiness of heart. And when he had said these words, the Spirit of the Lord was upon him, and he said:…having one faith and one baptism…” What I understand to mean from this passage is 1.) The individual (Alma) cried to the Lord for authority to perform baptism. 2.) The Lord gave him the authority and power to do so. 3.) One baptism, or in other words, the baptism of water and of the fire and Holy Ghost. To be born of Water and of Spirit.

      I also understand the above to mean that those having been given authority from God to baptize, baptize with power and authority from God. And when the baptism is performed correctly, invariably is the power are those who were baptized visited with fire and with the Holy Ghost, receiving a remission of their sins by Christ who performed the second half of the (one) baptism.

      I hope I have explained myself as to be understood. I am not great with words.

      1. Thank you for clarifying. So here is my problem with this. Do what degree does the Spirit have to present at the baptism? Are we saying that at LDS baptisms they didn’t pray hard enough to invite the Spirit? Like I said I have felt the Holy Ghost during plenty of baptisms. Sometimes to greater degrees and sometimes perhaps not at all.
        Now we have denver saying the LDS church lost all authority because he wrested it from them. So is he claiming that only if people follow what he says (because he is the mouthpiece for God) even if for now that just means the 10 lectures, which ask people to radically change their lives, that they can follow Christ?

  10. Minorityofone,

    I agree with you in principle. The question I proposed is actually 2-parts, “Is Denver a true messenger and is his message from the Lord?” By message I was referring specifically to his 10-part talk, which began in Boise last year and concluded in Phoenix on 9/9/14 with instructions to those who hear or read it. These are the instructions that Tim is following. Denver claimed them to be from the Lord and in the name of the Lord. Taking action on those instructions, in known to the LDS Church, will certainly result in excommunication from said institution. I think my reasoning is sound as applied to Denver and his message – it is very specific to him, his message, and his claims.

    Feel free to correct me. I could be wrong, about many things. I do not KNOW.

    1. My understanding based on my own spiritual experiences is that a lot of what Denver is saying is true, and some of it isn’t. I might get thrashed for this, but I have a spiritual witness from God that women will hold the priesthood before the millennium. That is one of a few things that I have received from the Spirit that I will cannot just retract.
      I believe if people feel in their hearts, and especially receive a witness from the Spirit that they ought to be rebaptized than they should do it.
      Have you received an answer either way on Denver’s message yet?

      Tim- have you received a witness from the Holy Ghost that EVERYTHING Denver taught in these 10 lectures is true?
      I am questioning just his opening statement that we can’t receive the Spirit without measure. I think certain individuals other than Christ have received this. I believe translated beings do. That is just from the first few paragraphs. This is a very interesting time and I would be willing to do whatever the Spirit told me. I believe that the world has not even tasted of what is available yet.

      1. If you read all of Denver’s talks, which he said repeatedly are all one long talk, it is internally structured as one contiguous message (book-length too) and he declares several times that the entirety of it was given to him by the Lord to be delivered as he did. That is his claim and hence the way my questions are phrased.

      2. Fernando,

        Your response presupposes that any action the church takes is, by definition, correct, and therefore that acting to conceal anything from them (not by lying, of course, which would be wrong; simply by silence) is totally inexcusable. I reject that assumption. Each of us is living a unique life, with enormous differences in our circumstances. I believe the Lord asks different things of each of us. When I heard Tim had resigned, I wondered whether that was the right choice. For me, I feel the Lord wants me to serve within the church for the time being, and not depart until shown the exit by a council of 15 high priests (Rock’s term is “kicking and screaming” which I think is apt). Rather than judge Tim for doing something different from what I think I’m going to do, I simply trust that the Lord knows ALL of the details, and can guide each of us into whatever he would have us do. My current role within the church should not, however, prevent me from complying with the Lord’s commandments. Between you and I, I will apply the 11th article of faith and allow you the privilege of worshiping according to the dictates of your own conscience, and I hope you will do likewise. If Tim, or any of us, have something wrong, by all means make the case – persuade, teach, enlighten. If I’m in error I’m very much interested in learning the truth and abandoning the error. But simply declaring that we’re wrong, and “going to see the folly of our ways” etc. is not persuasive. You learn that one on the mission? How well did it work for you? Only kidding of course :). On a serious note though, I sincerely wish you all the best.

    2. I agree if The Church finds out we’ll all be thrown out; however I have no worries about them discovering very many of us. We’re widely dispersed, many of us only using pseudonyms online (myself included), and the Gestapo can’t have eyes and ears everywhere at once. If they swell the ranks of the SCMC to try and track down and root out all of us who remain on the membership rolls, odds are this behavior won’t sit well with some few of them. Maybe there will even be those who awaken as a result of the attention the Church pays to these groups. It’ll certainly make for some interesting theater, and will reveal much about the nature and disposition of those in authority. I can hear the inquisition in Temple Recommend interviews now. Just as “you can’t sue an idea” you can’t track community members who don’t belong to any organized body (see

      1. Fernando Valenzuela

        The very fact that you have to hide it means you shouldn’t be doing it. If the church is wrong, as you claim, why do you care if they excommunicate you? You can’t be in both camps.

      2. There is no doubt about my being discovered. Because my mug shot has been posted on all of my posts and all over the web due to my registration with WordPress Gravitar. Tim and a few other WordPress people have also registered with Gravitar for business reason. Cooked Goose… I would say… if my leaders are reading my posts.

      3. I especially don’t understand this no organized body, no hierarchy stuff. If that was how it was supposed to be, why did Joseph Smith organize the church and establish a hierarchy?

        Note that saying that the current church has become too hierarchical or otherwise wrong does not refute this argument. What I’m asking is, do you believe that Joseph Smith was wrong to organize the church as he did? Do you not believe that he did organize this church? Or was he not trying to establish Zion?

        I’m trying to understand how the idea that there should be no hierarchy or no organized church can be reconciled with the restoration through Joseph Smith. Or with the scriptures in general. For example, we talked about Alma in a previous post and how he organized, ordained, commanded, judged, etc.

      4. Also Fernando, your assertion that if something needs to be hidden then it must be wrong world condemn Alma. Read Mosiah 18:1-3 and tell me again about how privacy is wrong. Now lest anyone be tempted to ad hominem attack, I did not just compare myself or anyone else to Alma. I merely pointed out the possibility that concealing something from those in power can be acceptable to the Lord. Each of us has to approach him and get instruction relevant to our own life, and it doesn’t have to make sense to anyone else. He alone knows all the details, and is therefore the only one who is perfectly situated to direct us.

    3. And as per Tim, these instructions came from the Lord. How else should one respond other than to heed them?
      “Me: Lord, Denver said the commandment to be baptized has been renewed, here and now, TODAY (last Tuesday 9-9-14). Is that what I need to do and did that command come from thee?

      Lord: Yes, Tim. That’s why I had Denver state it the way he did.”

      And there shall be no disputations among you, as there have hitherto been; neither shall there be disputations among you concerning the points of my doctrine, as there have hitherto been. For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another. Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another.”

  11. Fernando Valenzuela

    Once you see the folly of your ways and realized that you’ve been deceived by a false prophet all as part of your desire to gain blog followers and web traffic, you’ll repent and see the need to be re-baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

    Until then you’ll be as those described in 2 Timothy 3:7 – “Ever learning, and never coming to the knowledge of the truth.”

    1. Fernando

      Excuse me! Who are you to say that Tim’s motives are to gain followers on this blog or anything else other than what he has stated and has stated all along.

      I think you are new to this blog… or at least I have not seen many postings. Comments of disagreement are always welcome… we learn from them, but attacking someone’s motives…no matter who they are does not represent the one you claim to be defending.

      1. Fernando Valenzuela

        Actually, Tim said in the comments of the last post announcing his resignation that he would purposely go for attention:

        “Sensational Post Titles: Guilty. I do it on purpose. I know it annoys, bothers, even offends some people. They have told me so. Yes, the purpose is to get readers to come to the blog and read the post. There are thousands of LDS blogs out there. I’m listed in many of the online directories. I’ve been dropped by a few. ”

        I’ve known Tim for about 25 years and I came to this blog last year when some posts were in my Facebook news feed. I could tell right away where he was headed and sadly, he ended up right where many of us knew he would.

        I assume you’re refereNing Christ when you talked about who I’m defending. The spirit of my comment wasn’t to defend Christ but to let Tim know the real need for re-baptism and that it’s never too late to come back.

        I knew I’d catch heat from all the acolytes on here and that’s fine with me as I’m not going to sugar coat something like this. Also, I’m not going to hang around here because my wise mother taught me as a youth that nothing leads people out of the church like special study groups. Back then we didn’t have the Internet but I think that applies to all of these blogs we have now too. Tim’s decision to leave shows that, as usual, mom was right.

        Now I’ll let everybody get back on their rameumptums so they can keep praying to give thanks to God that they’re smarter than everybody else, especially all the other poor saps out there that follow the prophet.

    2. Although Fernando has probably left the conversation, I would like to address his comment directly. Bro, I love you. Always have. I thank you for being an answer to my prayers twenty-five years ago when we first met. I enjoyed our work together – your enthusiasm for my wild ideas about how to market something that went contrary to the established way of things in the company. We had a great team going for awhile.

      I appreciate your warning about folly and deception and false prophets. Trust me, Gordon, I’ve been dealing with this for 2 1/2 years. This is not something I do lightly or without much study, thought and prayer. I am no blind follower. What I do, I do with the approval of and even the encouragement of the Lord. Encouragement is too weak of a word. What I do by being baptized is following a commandment of the Lord.

      I love your family. They have been good to me. Your sister continues to watch over my wife with love and compassion. I admire your parents for the influence they were in my life. I was so grateful to see them in the temple or visiting our ward on several occasions and be able to give them a hug, knowing they had forgiven me for my influence upon you. Yes, I know they blamed me for awhile for what happened.

      I was grateful to stand in a priesthood circle with your brother many years back. Afterward, I asked his forgiveness. He was gracious and said it was not required. I love him for the good man he is. You come from a good family. I also ask your forgiveness, Gordon, if you harbor any ill feelings against me for what happened so many years ago or if you find what I am doing now to be offensive to you and your family.

      There’s no need to hide in the cloak of anonymity. When I started this blog, I decided I would not hide anything. It would be open and I would share whatever I felt the Lord asked me to share. And because I’m a computer guy like you, yes, I understand the importance of keyword searches, sensational headlines, and engaging content. But I do not do that to bring attention to myself, I do it to get readers to come back.

      I pay to make sure there are no ads on this blog. I pay to keep the domain name alive even when allows free domains. I have dedicated this blog to the Lord, and in a very special way, He let me know He accepted of my offering. That’s why it hurt so much when the Bishop asked me to take it down. I did so twice knowing it was contrary to what the Lord had asked of me. He was not pleased.

      Resigning my membership was the only way I could continue with what I had asked the Lord to bless. In spite of how offensive my headlines and content seem to be to TBMs, trust me, I sweated and prayed over every post, every subject and even the headlines. I rejected some of the headlines as being too sensational, even though I knew they were inspired of the Lord, because I knew TBM’s would be offended. Sad.

      Bottom line: I hope we can be friends again. You should be proud of what you and your wife have accomplished with your family. I know I have been amazed by your wonderful children. I am not a threat to you or to your family. I am a lone wolf doing what he feels the Lord has asked him to do. Dismiss me. Ignore me. I have no mission to perform. My only desire is to please the Lord. Thus I desire to be baptized.

      God bless you my friend. We may never meet again in this life, but if we do, I hope we can embrace as brothers. I learned so much from you and am grateful for what you did for me and my family so many years ago. Please don’t be mad at me for doing what I feel directed to do. Your calls for me to repent are out of line. You don’t know me that well. It’s been a long time and a lot has changed since those days long ago.

      God bless you and your family. If you come back, I invite you to do so openly. Don’t hide behind anonymity just because you’re a church employee. It’s sad that so many of my friends can’t participate on my blog but do so in private emails because they are so afraid of losing their jobs with the church. Some are being bold in spite of that. I am amazed at their courage in sharing with me news from inside the COB.

      I know you don’t work there, but BYU can be just as oppressive to free thought and free speech. It’s obvious you had something to say, yet you felt you could not say it openly. That’s sad. That is evidence of a controlling atmosphere of a church that is protecting it’s power. You are evidence of the fear the church has placed in its employees. I am sorry for what you have to suffer with these golden handcuffs. It is truly sad.

    1. I live in taylorsville, while I am not in in one camp or other as far as the LDS church goes I would love to correspond. But if you are looking for a community nearby I know of none yet.

  12. I posted this information in another comment area but it is worth posting again.

    The question I have is: If Joseph Smith put it into the D&C differently than what was written in 3rd Nephi, there must have been a reason.

    I don’t like the idea of usurping the what Joseph taught in the restoration. If one justifies the new change based on what Denver claims is new revelation, it seems to me he is doing just what the modern LDS church has done…. changing what was Joseph revealed during the restoration.

    I looked up the words… authority and commission.

    Based on what I found, I was thinking perhaps if you are given the authority by Christ himself… it would be authority (noun: power, right, license) other wise…if the authorization came by passing it along from one priesthood holder to another…. it would be it would be called “commissioned.” (verb: enlisted, recruited)

    For those who want to retain their membership, it would probably not be wise to take the step Tim is taking. He had already made up his mind to adhere to Denver’s teachings long before he made up his mind to sever his membership with the Church.

    If he had confirmation to do so, then this should be his path. For me… I have not received confirmation that is the path I should take for now. In fact… the heavens have been quite silent on the issue for me. I will continue to seek answers.

    What say ye? I would like some input on my understanding.

  13. Fernando

    You poor guy. So you still believe everything mommy told you? Why is it that you think study groups lead people out of the church? Why did heber j grant say that if someone saw visions they were more likely to leave the church? The answer really is quite simple.
    You said that you yourself knew where tim was headed, you said you trusted in mama, and you caught a man in his words and twisted Tims comment. He said he tries to get readers on his blog, he didn’t say he makes religious choices to get readers on his blog.
    Tim is not asking you to follow him or saying he is better than anyone, yet you accuse him of being on a rameumpton.
    I believe it is the general authorities calling themselves the prophets,seers, and revelators. It is them who claims that when the prophet speaks the thinking is done. It is them claiming to have a “fulness” and no one else. It is them claiming to be the only ones entitled to receive some new truth, and it is them claiming they cannot lead anyone astray, and it is you who is climbing the rameumpton to join them in the top floor of the great and spacious building.

    1. Minority, I would like to see sources. There are dozens of conference talks about personal revelation. Russel M. Nelson gave a great one in 2009. I would rather build on common beliefs, of which we share many, but we should all desire to quell misinterpretations of doctrine, both emanating from LDS leaders and others. We are all entitled, and encouraged, to develop our own witness and testimony of all things the brethren and presiding sisters say. The distinction is I am not able to access revelation pertaining to the whole of the earth, only Thomas S. Monson has the authority to do so. That does not mean I have to blindly follow his counsel, nor should I. I am also fully and unequivocally able to receive direction for my own life, another doctrine the LDS Church espouses.

      1. I don’t know which comment you want me to source…. I do know if I said someone said something that you could find it if you looked it up.
        Sourcing takes time and if you don’t feel the need to verify if the quote exists or not that is ok. I agree I love to build on common beliefs as well but it is tough when people continuously jump on here and attack Tim and others. I have found that some people do not want edification unless it fits within their own box of beliefs.

        Have you asked God if He is willing to give you any truth that He hadn’t shared with President Monson? If you ask with a sincere heart and faith I believe He would be happy to tell you that He will gladly share new truths with you.
        Do you think president monson is asking and knocking about things? Is he asking if gays should be allowed to marry or do you think he just assumes to know? Do you think he even bothered to ask God if women should have the priesthood? Is he asking if God will give him a seer stone or anything like that at all or is he just trying to run the church. He believes his exaltation is secure and if he was going to lead the church astray God would kill Him.
        I respect anyone who truly believes they are following the Holy Ghost. I think often members feel the Holy Ghost from time to time and they think everything in the church is true when in reality The Lord has only told them that parts of it are true but they think someone God has told them it all is

      2. Minority, I am all for factual citation of information. But if you base your opinion on something you should be able to provide a source that verifies the Church’s stance. If you have sources about the following that would be great:

        -“I believe it is the general authorities calling themselves the prophets,seers, and revelators. It is them who claims that when the prophet speaks the thinking is done.”
        -“It is them claiming to have a “fulness” and no one else.”
        -“It is them claiming to be the only ones entitled to receive some new truth…”

        I have heard variations on these points, but the context you place them in distorts the message they were given in. On the first point:

        -In a sense you are correct, the thinking is done, in that the doctrine, principal or counsel is set (unless the Lord makes a new revelation). The misnomer that you allude to arises (I suspect) from a 1945 letter to the wards. But additional clarity from George Albert Smith dispels that and reaffirms that all are entitled to receive their own witness.
        -With the second point I can only presume you mean the prophet being the only authorized person on the earth to receive revelation for the entire earth. If I am correct in this extrapolation I do not see why that would be an issue, as I refer you back to point one, it does not mean you cannot receive your own confirmation on anything the prophet says, and you also are entitled to your own revelation. If I misinterpreted this, please clarify.
        -The third point is really an extension of point two, unless I have erred in understanding your point.

        Thanks Minority!

      3. Minority, I think I understand the spirit of what you are saying and want to proceed with caution, as I am not entitled to question or criticize anyone’s personal experience. I will stay rooted in doctrine with my response and ask that you not take offense, as that is not my intent, rather it is to converse.

        The Church is designed, by God, to have an authoritative voice. Consider the alternative. If there was the ability for anyone to challenge key points of doctrine the units would be in chaos. In fact, in the early church Joseph Smith (and subsequent leaders) frequently had to contend with alternate voices crying differing opinions of revelation. There are many points from Joseph Smith that discuss this exact point (and subsequent leaders, but I will stick with Joseph for now):

        -“Let us be faithful and silent, brethren, and if God gives you a manifestation, keep it to yourselves.” Joseph Smith, Jr., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, selected by Joseph Fielding Smith, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1976), 91.

        -“Nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the spirit of God.” Joseph Smith, Jr., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, selected by Joseph Fielding Smith, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1976), 205.

        -“The reason we do not have the secrets of the Lord revealed unto us, is because we do not keep them but reveal them.” Joseph Smith, Jr., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, selected by Joseph Fielding Smith, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1976).

        I understand your concern about your progress being damned by that of the Prophet. But given the previous doctrine, it follows that: 1.) the Lord reveals major doctrine in his own time, not the Prophet’s 2.) individual revelation should enhance gospel understanding, not conflict with it.

        We are all able to obtain our calling and election. That should be every faithful LDS member’s goal. But that does not require a perfect knowledge of all doctrines, especially ones the Lord has not yet revealed through the Prophet. There is a great talk about calling and election here: There is lots of commentary on it by Joseph at this link:

        Ultimately, the thesis statement for calling and election is: To obtain your calling and election there is a balance of desire, faith and the constant pursuit of knowledge. Your faith must work in the knowledge you acquire, as the Lord will not make all things known at once.

        That is clumsily written, but it is the jest of it. No man (other than you) can stop your progression.

    2. Sorry Minority, I did not intend to ignore your questions:
      -“Have you asked God if He is willing to give you any truth that He hadn’t shared with President Monson? If you ask with a sincere heart and faith I believe He would be happy to tell you that He will gladly share new truths with you.”
      -Absolutely, the spirit will teach you truths when you do independent study, and I know of no church leader who has taught otherwise.
      -“Do you think president monson is asking and knocking about things? Is he asking if gays should be allowed to marry or do you think he just assumes to know? Do you think he even bothered to ask God if women should have the priesthood? Is he asking if God will give him a seer stone or anything like that at all or is he just trying to run the church. He believes his exaltation is secure and if he was going to lead the church astray God would kill Him.”
      -Do I think Pres. Monson is perfect? No. Do I believe he is a man, fallible, constantly in need of the Lord to magnify his efforts in his calling (just like anyone else)? Absolutely. But I also believe the Lord will ensure that the revelation that needs to go forward, will. Just because Monson is not speaking on certain matters or revising doctrine or programs of the Church does not mean he is not constantly troubled by issues within our society and preparing for the coming of the Messiah. I believe, in short, that the work of the Lord will go forward. The current prophet is just as fallible as ancient prophets, and Joseph Smith, yet the Lord hastened the work ahead, in spite of, and with the help of, His chosen servants anciently and presently. The Lord is all about order. He has a design on everything. Absolutely the gospel is doing what it is meant to. The Church, that is another matter. But it is not because the Church is not true, lost its authority, or any other reason than it is led by fallible people who make mistakes.

      1. To the final point I would add when the Church struggles it is because it has fallible leaders, and members who are not perfect in their progression. The flaws of the Church I would argue are by the Lord’s design, so we have the opportunity to learn and grow together; put our faith in the Lord. The ability of the Church to grow and flourish in spite of its warts and flaws shows the strength of the Church, not its weakness. That last thought is a personal one, not something that I have read anywhere.

      2. Ok here is the thing that gets me. Yes we can receive confirmations about revelations the president of the church has received. That is understood.

        What would have happened if someone received revelation that brigham young was wrong about the blacks not receiving the priesthood until the millennium, or the Adam God theory….
        They would have either had to keep their mouth shut, or be ex-communicated if they didn’t shut up.
        Today if someone receives what you called “independent” revelation it has to either be in harmony with church teachings, or you simply can’t share it. So this is what I mean by a new truth. I have received a witness from the Spirit that polygamy was not commanded. I have received a witness on quite a few things that I know to be true that are either against church teachings, or are not taught in church, so I have been labeled an apostate.
        So yes, I believe we are basically damned because we can only truly progress at the same rate as the president of the church unless we progress in truth silently. If we choose to remain silent though we become hypocrites as we nod our heads and pretend everything is fine.

        Does this not resonate with you? I do know there are spiritual people who simply haven’t been told anything is wrong with the church yet so I don’t blame them. But when people rail on others who claim a spiritual experience that isn’t in harmony with the church just because it isn’t taught in church, this is just pride.

      3. Minority, you raise interesting points. As it pertains to doctrine and practices of the Gospel, they emanate from one source. Learning is line upon line.

        Which organization would you prefer? One where there is an authoritative voice on matters of church doctrine, or one where anyone can claim to have received doctrine contrary to the tenets of the church. The latter would be chaos. In fact, in the early LDS Church Joseph (and subsequent leaders) had to contend with it numerous times.

        We can progress as quickly as we are able to bear things. Doctrine from the Prophet and independent enlightenment are two totally different things. We should all be striving for our own calling and election. We do not need to receive every single doctrine to do that. So, to assume that because the Prophet (and really the Lord), has not yet declared something, all individual members are damned in their progression.

        I struggle with this, because I do believe that people on here want to do what is the Lord’s will and I do not wish to question your personal experience (or that of anyone else) but would suggest you consider the following counsel from Joseph Smith and keep rooted in doctrine, rather than speculation of what may or may not be happening behind the scenes:

        -Let us be faithful and silent, brethren, and if God gives you a manifestation, keep it to yourselves. Joseph Smith, Jr., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, selected by Joseph Fielding Smith, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1976), 91.

        -Nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the spirit of God. Joseph Smith, Jr., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, selected by Joseph Fielding Smith, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1976), 205.

        -The reason we do not have the secrets of the Lord revealed unto us, is because we do not keep them but reveal them. Joseph Smith, Jr., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, selected by Joseph Fielding Smith, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1976).

  14. Kathryn, in response to your recent post, I can share that I continually feel prompted to “be still and know that I am God.” I have read Denver’s blog, books, talks and essays. I have learned a great deal and have come further unto Christ because of many of his insights. I’m very grateful for learning more through anyone who teaches truthful insights from the scriptures that can be ratified by the Spirit. There are many other gifted and insightful teachers, many of whom are leaders in the church–both male and female.

    The Savior teaches that He will redeem again Zion, that He will heal the house of Israel. He promises He will remember His people and forgive their folly. He promises not to forsake us. So I have asked for four years if leaving the church is what He would have me do. I have always been asked if I would be willing to do so if He asked me to. I have told Him I would do that and anything else He wanted, but only if He, Himself, tells me. I have had so many spiritual moments and experiences in my life I cannot deny–many of which are through my service within the church. I’ve had truly holy moments in the temples. I can’t leave these paths of light and pure grace by the words of any mortal person.

    I don’t fear change like many people do. Even when it’s uncomfortable, it brings growth and knowledge. Change awakens and enlivens. Often it recharges the soul. So I’m comfortable with discomfort, trusting in eventual positive outcomes. Nevertheless, I have found that, for me, staying the course is what I am asked to do—to hold on and wait upon the Lord to re-direct things through His ordained and faithful, though imperfect servants.

    This requires patience, long-suffering, and love unfeigned. It demands humility, forgiving, building up, buoying up, and a cheerful disposition when I don’t feel like being or doing any of these things. Sigh.

    But whatever we do to anyone–the least and the greatest and all in-between among us–we do unto Him. If we tear down, we tear down our Savior. If we criticize, we criticize Him. If we castigate, we castigate Him. If we shame, we shame Him. I covenanted to follow Him…….for me, that seems to mean laboring within the LDS vineyard, doing all I can to be like Jesus among my fellow members. I do not worry too much about Salt Lake. God will take care of them accordingly, the same as He will deal with my weaknesses and errors, my strengths and gifts.

    I found my community long decades ago in many different wards and stakes all over America. What goodness I found there. What growth, spirit, joy, comfort, and Life! I have known sorrow too, and tragedy, and darkness in them at times also. We mourned, we comforted, we stood by one another, and forgave one another. In these communities we came closer to Christ and little by little, day by day came to understand what it means to be called the “humble followers of Christ.” In them we spoke of Christ, we rejoiced in Christ, and learned that He truly is the only name under Heaven whereby we may be saved.

    My communities fed me–one lowly sheep. They fed my marriage–two lowly sheep. They nurtured and challenged my family–more lowly sheep. And they bless my grandchildren today. I have been abundantly fed, and at times I have been the one who tried to genuinely feed through the Spirit. Yet always in feeding, I was filled!

    My communities I will cherish all my days throughout all eternity. If Jesus appears before me as He did young Joseph and asks me to leave them, I will weep as I obey. But until then, I’m staying with these beloved other sheep of His fold. May we all go wherever the Master asks us to go……and stay where He asks us to stay. May God bless you all in your sacred journeys.

    Best and sweetest joy to you Sunday, Tim. Carol, just love him always as he follows his heart home to God. Tim, you do the same for Carol. Let love knit your hearts together though your walks with God are not exactly the same. Love celebrates diversity. Love overcomes lost expectations. Love heals. Love lifts. God.Is.LOVE. All glory to His Holy Name.

    1. Thanks for those words. You are one that obviously follows God and would do what He asked you to do no matter what. I believe Tim is as well. Who knows but that love will bring us all together

  15. Side note: Tim, as I was scrolling through the comments I just noticed your About profile in the right-hand sidebar, lower down. It says “Orthodox Conservative LDS,” which I will confess made me chuckle. Might be time for an update…

  16. OK, this will seem like a gotcha question, but I mean it sincerely. Tim, in your May 4 blog entry:

    you stated, “I wanted to make sure the Bishop and a member of the Stake Presidency present – he’s also in our ward – heard me say I sustain the general authorities and local authorities of the church.” I believe you expressed your sustaining of general authorities several other times as well.

    You were obviously aware of Denver Snuffer’s excommunication, appeal, and the denial of his appeal, as well as his accusations about interference. Per Snuffer, doesn’t your sustaining of those authorities mean your priesthood was withdrawn?

    1. Could very well be. I’m grateful for repentance. Sounds kind of like an Alma situation. He had authority from King Noah, right? But he said he was a wicked man until he was pricked in his heart by the words of Abinidi. Good question. Thanks for asking. Worthy of contemplation. God bless.

      1. Thanks for responding. A follow-up question: is there not room for repentance for the leaders of the church, whose priesthood was withdrawn, according to Denver Snuffer?

        1. Well, I don’t believe they have need of repentance in that regard (emphasis on in that regard). It just doesn’t make sense to me that of all the reasons one could come up with as to why the church no longer had authority (or however you want to phrase that), it would be because the other general authorities sustained the first presidency and twelve apostles after they excommunicated Denver Snuffer, or didn’t grant his appeal, is more correct I guess.

          Also, I thought if God gave someone priesthood authority, it didn’t require organizational approval, or by man (or by 7 women).

      2. I believe individually there’s always room, but institutionally it’s done. In Denver’s words, if a Mormon Apostle came seeking baptism, none of us would refuse him. If Thomas Monson or Henry Eyring or any of the others would repent their individual priesthood could be returned, provided they could garner 7 women among a free community to sustain them and empower them to act. God isn’t done with any of us.

      3. Nonrandom…

        it makes sense that they would lose their priesthood if god sent them a messenger like when he sent Abinadai to king Noah. Granted king Noah’s crimes seemed pretty bad, but god always warns. If we reject and cast out a true messenger then it would make sense that we lose our priesthood. Have we sold our religion for money? Did they reject a prophet because he wasn’t one of the anointed?

        It follows a scriptural pattern. The Book of Mormon is full of situations where people are sent to testify of wickedness outside of the patriarchal church leadership order.

        In 3 Nephi 3:6 right before Christ’s appearance we see just this pattern of inspired men coming to testify of wickedness and a similar reaction from church leadership.

        20 And there began to be men inspired from heaven and sent forth, standing among the people in all the land, preaching and testifying boldly of the sins and iniquities of the people, and testifying unto them concerning the redemption which the Lord would make for his people, or in other words, the resurrection of Christ; and they did testify boldly of his death and sufferings.

        21 Now there were many of the people who were exceedingly angry because of those who testified of these things; and those who were angry were chiefly the chief judges, and they who had been high priests and lawyers; yea, all those who were lawyers were angry with those who testified of these things.
        3 Nephi 6:20-21

        The only question then becomes whether to not Denver Snuffer is truly being sent by god and is inspired an inspired man sent to testify of our iniquity. If he is inspired everything else falls into place and makes perfect sense.

        That the church has been under condemnation for so long is an undisputed fact, and was claimed by president Benson. That we are living a lesser law of carnal commandments without the higher laws of consecration is an undisputed fact. Has the church taken it relationship with Babylon too far? Have we neglected the needy by focusing to much on the “adorning of our buildings”?

        If so, at what point does god send a messenger. And if the people in the leadership are so caught up in the culture that “in many instances they do err,” he would likely send a inspired person from the outside to tell them because that is his pattern.

      4. I have 2 problems with that – 1, Denver told people to stay in the church and that they could continue their progress there (that’s my paraphrase), and only recently said otherwise. That does not track with Abinadi’s message. 2) Abinadi did not claim to have wrested any priesthood or authority.

      5. Nonrandom, you are getting to caught up on specifics. God follows a pattern but his message can change according to circumstances.

        For example, the priests of kind Noah were wildly wicked spending times with harlots. They likely were past the point of just losing their Priesthood privileges when they began that kind of behavior.

        DS did not accuse the brethren of any of that, he simply came clean about the truth of our history, and invited us to be better, to live better,to follow our own teachings,many the ex’d him for doing it.

        King Noah burned Abinadi, and it was a type of things to come for them. The church tried or believes they took DS priesthood from him and therefore if he is innocent, at the least they robbed him of being able to worship in the temple and do his duty. If he is innocent and a true messenger he has been robbed. It makes sense that it would be the moment the priesthood is rested from those who violated a law of God and rejected his messenger. Just because DS was there to say when it happened does not make it untruthful.

        As far as leaving the church, I don’t see that directive, but if we followed his other admonitions we would likely be exed. I think The Lord would want us to practice our religion the way he wants us to and if we get exed for it then it would be to their condemnation if we are doing nothing wrong.

        In section 112 The Lord talks about the coming day of destruction.

        25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;

        26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.
        D&C 112:25-26

        Spencer W Kimball quoted Brigham young when he said, “I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security.” Brigham young adds, “Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not.”

        I’m not saying DS is a prophet. But you should do what your doing. Make a decisions one way or the other and take it to The Lord. If the feeling persists, change the answer and take it back to him until you get a confirmation either way. We need to use the same principles we ask investigators to use, and if we don’t know how to do that how can we say we know anything?

  17. I appreciate that there are specific words and patterns used to better symbolize ordinances in the church. For example I see why a bitter wine or even grape juice would be symbolic of Christ’s blood more than water. However, I think what truly matters is the spirit we carry going into an ordinance. All the specifics….do they really matter to The Lord? In d&c 27:2 he says:

    2 For, behold, I say unto you, that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory–remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins.

    The Lord looks upon the heart more than anything else.

    When performing and ordinance or asking for his help, What matters is if we took it seriously, put the forethought into what we would do, we tried our best to pay attention to the details, to show him that it matters and we want to give him our very best. It’s about returning to the Holy Ghost. It is when we do things with a contrite spirit and with pure intent that the Holy Ghost will ratify our procedures and ordinances and consecrate it for the welfare of our souls. In 2nd nephi we learn this principle:

    9 But behold, I say unto you that ye must pray always, and not faint; that ye must not perform any thing unto the Lord save in the first place ye shall pray unto the Father in the name of Christ, that he will consecrate thy performance unto thee, that thy performance may be for the welfare of thy soul.
    2 Nephi 32:9

    This scripture also ratifies what DS is saying about praying for authority from god before performing an ordinance. That makes absolute sense. When someone asks me for a blessing, I always offer a prayer asking for his power and help even if it’s short silent and to myself.

    Remember, we have the Holy Ghost, we can speak with the tongue of angels, do angels speak strictly English? Some of my greatest prayers have been wordless deep longings for the love of my father, or seeking to align my will with his.

  18. How is Carol processing all of this, Tim? I pray you both the Lord’s blessings.

    The orthodox/traditional LDS view does not see any other legitimate paths to the Lord – rather, all other paths are viewed as lesser and incomplete – it does not accept or comprehend that there might be a path which is greater and certainly not one that would lead from within to outside church membership (D&C 77) and yet our scriptures clearly refer to “the Church of the Firstborn” in many places.

  19. Geoff: We have felt your prayers and those of many others. I was delighted when Carol agreed to go with me Wednesday to inspect the last two places on my list I had in mind for the baptism. Last night she asked if she was invited to the baptism. I reassured her she had been invited and was again delighted when she accepted the invitation. Previously she had said she would not be there. I am feeling blessed.

    Your statement about the orthodox / traditional LDS view says it so well for me. I have had so many private conversations trying to explain why I am doing this with my traditional LDS friends. They just can’t conceive of any other possibility than what we have been taught growing up and which I also taught for so many years. I may just have to borrow your statement to add to my offerings. It fits perfectly. Thank you so much.

  20. Yes Tim,

    The Lord is from all eternity to all eternity. Enoch knew this in Moses 7. He cannot be held to configure within an earthly church that is 184.5 years old with the foibles of man creating extemporaneous agencies within. The priesthood is flowing toward and in righteous individuals. To say someone outside the church who has maintained their righteousness through charity and love with his priesthood and continues thereon, is not qualified to execute the laws of the priesthood based on the laws of righteousness, is saying: “I know more what to do with this priesthood than the Lord, who obeys and authors the laws therein?”

    The restrictive dominion within the church develops over time as the Catholic Church, the Lutheren church did, and the Nephite church did. So after 184.5 years, there has been no deviation from the Lord’s original intent after we have been put under condemnation??? The heavens are moving again and things are developing. Unbelief will keep us unaware. God bless you Tim.

  21. I pray we will all be edified as we renew our covenants this Sunday and rejoice in the knowledge that amazing things are unfolding all around us.

      1. Lynne McKinley in Orem

        Thinking about you and your baptism today, Tim. 15 years ago I removed my name from the rolls of the LDS Church – not because I didn’t have a rock solid testimony of Joseph Smith and the Restoration, but because I did. It has been a long, lonely exile. Today I was baptized by a humble follower of Christ, in the company of several other good people who likewise went down into the waters of baptism and came to Christ, with full heart, putting it all on the altar to do so. Many of them, like me, will be shunned and derided for being delusional, at best. Many of them will lose friends and family, and know what it feels like to be “cast out”. However, they will have a new family, a new fellowship, and the support of likeminded souls on their journey out of Babylon. My heart is full today experiencing a renewing of baptism covenants by good people who understand fully the magnitude of the act. My exile is over, I have found my family. Thank you all, brave dear brothers and sisters in Christ, for the best day of my life so far on this earth. With great love.

      2. Tim, You and Carol have been in my thoughts today. The earth itself is renewed, and heaven takes notice of our acceptance of what God is doing in this generation. It is beginning again. There’s a great distance yet to go, and I’m terrified that I will fail, or worse yet cause others to fail. I hope we’re equal to the challenges that lie ahead of us. I’ll miss the church when they finally get around to throwing my bones out, but I know the result is worth the price. God bless you as you prepare for tomorrow good brother. “…may Christ lift thee up, and may his sufferings and death, and the showing his body unto our fathers, and his mercy and long-suffering, and the hope of his glory and of eternal life, rest in your mind forever.” (Moroni 9:25).

  22. John

    I understand your argument. I want to just ask you to think about what you said. You basically said that if there is folly or imperfection in the church, it is because The Lord designed it to be that way…

    Are you serious about that? If Jesus Christ was literally at the head of the church and the president of the church was His literal mouthpiece would a false doctrine come across the pulpit? If it did would it not be cleared up very soon after?
    Brigham Young claimed that everything he had taught over the pulpit could be considered scripture. You would think in the decades of brigham Young’s leadership that if he was truly in contact with Jesus Christ that the Savior would have kindly corrected him…
    I use brigham young because he is the easiest target but every president (in my opinion) has taught false doctrine.
    Jesus Christ is not leading the LDS church in any greater way than He is leading any church. If it was HIS church He would not be allowing false doctrine to continually be taught for almost 2 centuries.
    I agree it is all part of a great plan but the great plan does not involve Jesus telling presidents of the church to teach false doctrine.
    There is truth in your quote that if we learn something by revelation we need to be careful to not spread it. I believe this pertains to mysteries and meat that many are not ready to receive.

    I recently learned of a woman who joined the LDS church and was asked to practice polygamy. She prayed for days to know if polygamy had been commanded by God and was willing to practicd it if she received a confirmation that is was truly commanded.
    After days she received a clear revelation telling her that polygamy was not from God, and it was doctrine of men. She spent the rest of her life preaching against the false practice.
    I felt the Spirit when I learned of this. Some things are not meant to be hidden under a bushel. Polygamy was not commanded by God, blacks should have never been kept from the priesthood, there has not been a seer on the earth since the time of Joseph Smith (other than translated beings etc), masonic rituals were not given of God, and much of the doctrine and covenants as currently constituted is false.

    These are things I know from the Holy Ghost. I know that God does not want me to keep my mouth shut about these truths. It is simply amazing to me how people choose to not pray about these things until they receive an answer but their trust in men is stronger than their desire to learn the truth from God.

    You said new revelation doesn’t really have to do with the prophet, it is on the Lords time and when He wills to give it.
    Please tell me how this fits in with James1:5, the importune woman, “seek and ye shall find…”, 1Nephi 10:18-19, and the brother of Jared?
    The brother of Jared we know could not be kept within the veil, his faith was so great that he had access to “all” of God’s revelations.
    Can only the president of the LDS church gain such faith? Obviously that is ridiculous. The truth is that you can ask God about anything and receive an answer. You can learn way more than the LDS church claims you can.
    The first thing to learn though is that the church has been lead astray, and then your heart can be open to an infinite amount of truths that you have never considered.
    I am sorry if you don’t know that to be true, because that means you are stuck, and I will prophesy that the LDS church will never build up Zion, they will never lead a man or woman to the fulness of the priesthood, and the organization will be destroyed before the second coming of Jesus Christ.

    How could the president of the church lead men and women up the mountain into God’s presence when he has not climbed the mountain himself?

  23. Tim,

    Wishing you we’ll tomorrow. I hope you find what you are looking for. Question for you: I believe I read from you, that your sister is Elder Perry’s secratery. What does she think about your actions/beliefs, and do you know if she has discussed about you with Elder Perry?

  24. What saddens me the most is there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding going on. I see DS being misunderstood and his intentions maligned.
    If the Church he worshipped in, served in, was saved in, and worked within its tenants to help others to come unto Christ — came to excommunicate (should have or not is another discussion, not here) — how else is he to proceed? A) Repent and come back to the Church he did all this in or, B) Take it to the Lord and ask what path he should be on for him, his family, and those he loves dearly. I believe that DS is trying to do that which he feels has been told to him.
    From some of his comments I see pain in his words. How could the Church he loved come to expel him because he brought out what he felt were “legal arguments” of the facts? That is what anyone in his profession might do.
    But maybe, just maybe, the Lord told him some truths about some eternal insights into the “Heavenly Order of the Priesthood” that he became so desirable to share it that the message was misunderstood.
    Perhaps he should have kept it to himself and thanked the Lord for such knowledge. Obviously those in sacred scripture who have the “powers of Heaven” given them so they may command even the angels to obey — are operating within a higher plane found within the “Holy Priesthood After the Order of The Son of God”, and it is that level of priesthood that if we are blessed to attain and then altogether turn therefrom, there would be no forgiveness for us (D&C 84).
    If one gives DS the belief that his Calling and Election has been made Sure then what would it matter if excommunicated.
    The Lord has given a remedy for those souls who fight against the “Heavenly Vision” once it has been gifted them, for they are turned over to the buffetings of Satan and that is done through Priesthood Authority too! And no I don’t believe DS is one who is seeking to fight against Heaven.
    I have always believed in Steven Covey’s advice, “Seek first to understand, then seek to be understood” (paraphrased). Perhaps there is much of that not occurring in these dialogues.
    So now we have these masses going out to establish their own “Zion Communities” and they say that DS has told them to do so. I don’t see that in the words I have read. For those who don’t have a place to lay their head (organized religion or church) then I see that as an alternative for them.
    I seek only the peace that comes when we understand each other. We are all God’s children and I can’t help to feel that He is not happy with some of the ways we are treating each other.
    Why can’t we seek to establish Zion within the Church? Why can’t we seek to establish Zion even without the Church (those who are non-members or have asked for their records to be removed)? Why can’t we seek to establish peace and joy among our families, our friends, and our neighbors?
    Are we that far away from Zion?
    Truly the long road that Elder McConkie saw in vision is truly a long, steep, and straight path with all sorts of hazards, and even he had personal opinions and visions that he may have later wished he had kept silent about.
    I just say a prayer that the Lord will look down upon us carnal, devilish, and wayward mortals and in a overwhelming gift of His Infinite Mercy shed forth His abundant Spirit more fully upon all who seek to establish ZION!

    1. Thank you, that was beautifully said. Amen. Stay the course. Some quotes: I

      In his October 1997 general conference message, entitled “Apply the Atoning Blood of Christ,” Elder Maxwell taught with great authenticity: “As we confront our own … trials and tribulations, we too can plead with the Father, just as Jesus did, that we ‘might not … shrink’—meaning to retreat or to recoil (D&C 19:18). Not shrinking is much more important than surviving! Moreover, partaking of a bitter cup without becoming bitter is likewise part of the emulation of Jesus” (Ensign, Nov. 1997, 22).

      Elder Orson F. Whitney, “No pain that we suffer, no trial that we experience is wasted. It ministers to our education, to the development of such qualities as patience, faith, fortitude and humility. All that we suffer and all that we endure, especially when we endure patiently, builds up our characters, purifies our hearts, expands our souls, and makes us more tender and charitable, more worthy to be called the children of God … and it is through sorrow and suffering, toil and tribulation, that we gain the education that we come here to acquire” (quoted in Spencer W. Kimball, Faith Precedes the Miracle [1972], 98).

  25. Calling michael

    You raise wonderful points. Are we that far from ZION? That is a deeper question than at first glance, and one that if we truly think on is a question that is irrelevant. The real question is am I that far from ZION? The kingdom of God is within.
    Yes we can seek ZION (which really means seeking Christ) wherever we are. The truth is though that eventually in the church (any church right now) you will find a point where what God is doing within you and what you are learning does not harmonize perfectly with the church. Then you will find yourself in conflict with leaders unless you choose to remain silent.
    It is hard to remain silent in Sunday school lessons where false doctrine and watered down nonsense are being thrown around week after week. God has planted people within the church and without and even if Denver Snuffer has acted rashly or impulsively God knew that he would, therefore it is part of the plan. Thanks for your good comment.

    BTW be careful using the word “tenant” in the wrong way on this blog site… Ha ha just giving Kath a hard time. Tenet tenet tenet.

  26. Pingback: A Time of Reflection, Part Four – Latter-day Commentary – Last Days – Signs of the Times

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