A New Star Will Soon Shine Forth

Photo credit: Orbiter.ch Space News

Denver Snuffer doesn’t need my help. He is controversial enough on his own to get all kinds of attention from members of the LDS Church. But when he wrote recently that a new star would soon appear, troubling all the world, and that it would be a sign that he was the Lord’s servant, I felt certain we would read some news articles, or at least see a mention or two by LDS Bloggers.

Except for this thread on New Order Mormon, there was nothing. Nada. How often do you read a prediction or prophecy about a major astronomical event about to come to pass, especially one that will trouble all the world? He writes that the entire world will see this new star and will wonder what it means. His claim that the star is a sign of his status with the Lord is…unusual.

Here’s what he wrote: “When the Seed of the Woman was born, a new star appeared in the heavens. In like manner, when the Lion of Judah returns, as with his first coming, there will be a new star seen. All the world will note its appearance and shall be troubled at its meaning. When it makes its appearance, you may know His return is soon upon the world. You may also know by that sign that He has given to me the words I have faithfully taught as His servant.”

Dealing with Nutcases

If you’re a regular reader of my blog, you know I don’t think Denver is a nutcase. Jim Harmston (died June 2013) is a nutcase. Warren Jeffs is a nutcase. Even Sterling D. Allan is a bit of a nutcase, based on some of the stuff on his website. Anyone can write about the church, things of a religious nature or whatever they want, and post it online for public consumption, for whatever reason they want.

There are lots of people out there who write about Denver. They have plenty of opinions about what they believe he has said, usually based on what someone else wrote that he said. Sadly, it’s been my observation that very few people have actually taken the time to read his books or study his blog consistently. There’s a reason for that. He’s very prolific. After all, he is a lawyer.

For some reason, many people who write about Denver lump him into the category of nutcase, similar to how we might think of David Koresh. Nothing could be further from the truth. Denver has made it clear that he does not want a following. He does not want people to hang on his every word and he has repeatedly called himself a fool, even writing that we mustn’t trust him.

Comets and Meteors

Six months ago, I taught the Gospel Doctrine class about the signs of the Second Coming of the Lord. Again, anyone who reads my blog knows that this is one of my favorite subjects. As I prepared for that class, I was surprised to learn that a new star will appear at the time the savior is soon to return. Now maybe you already knew this, but I didn’t. It really stood out in my mind.

So you can imagine I paid attention when Denver wrote the same thing on his blog the other day. What kind of star it was that appeared at the birth of the Savior is a matter of conjecture. Some say it was a supernova, others that it was simply a comet. But according to the Book of Mormon, it was unusual in that it caused a night without darkness. Will the same thing happen in our day?

We’re expecting several comets in the near future. One this week made its appearance in the Northern hemisphere. A brighter one is  projected to make its appearance later this year. Comets are really no big deal. They happen all the time, relatively speaking. This year is a little unusual to have two, along with the close passes by all the meteors and the one that exploded over Russia last month.

A Night of No Darkness

I’m going to assume that the star in question is not going to be mistaken for a comet. That leaves the probability of a Supernova. Don’t go thinking for a second that the astronomers will see this thing any sooner than you or me. But you can be sure the media will be all over their favorite science pundits looking for an explanation for this one. The last one was hundreds of years ago.

I should clarify for my science-minded friends. There have been more recent supernova, most notably SN1987A, but you probably didn’t hear about it because, although it could be seen with the naked eye, it was not very bright. I think Denver’s new star we’re talking about will be much brighter and probably much closer. I suspect it will cause a night with no darkness here on earth.

Is the idea that this new star will cause a night with no darkness just a guess? Of course it is. But I’ll claim it as a thoughtful guess. Otherwise, there is just nothing significant enough to make the whole world take notice. The Lord knows this amazing thing is going to happen soon. It has been foretold in scripture. But why would Denver decide to announce it on his blog last Sunday night?

Verify Statements with the Lord

I’m going to go back to that statement by Denver that we should not trust him unless we verify for ourselves that what he has written or said can be confirmed by the Holy Spirit to our souls. I was skeptical when I first started writing about Denver a year ago. In fact, if you go back and read my first essay, I was a little bit upset. Denver turned my world upside down for a while.

However, with each subsequent reading of his books, and I have read most of them several times now, I became more and more convinced that he was the real deal, meaning that his claims to have been ministered to by the Lord were legitimate and that the Lord asked him to write at least his first book. Don’t call me a Snufferite. I’m just convinced that Denver is a servant of the Lord.

Now, that’s a huge claim that we usually reserve for the men that we sustain as prophets and as apostles in this church. I also use it for Stake Presidents, Bishops, High Priests Group Leaders, Elder’s Quorum Presidents and humble home teachers. In fact, I consider any man or woman who seeks to do what the Lord wants them to do, to be a servant or maidservant of the Lord.

The Warrior Planet Mars

I find it interesting that there is current conjecture in the news about a comet that may possibly hit the planet Mars next year. In fact, one of the comets (ISON) coming by the earth later this year will also pass close to Mars, but not as close as comet Siding Spring next year. As you can tell, even though I am not a scientist per se, I love to follow astronomical and cosmological news.

Immediately upon the announcement of these events, the speculation began that should the comet hit Mars, it could possibly throw it out of its orbit, even if just a little bit. What do you think popped into my mind as soon as I read that? I wondered if perhaps that little red planet might somehow make it way a bit closer towards the earth sometime in the next few years.

To me, this is exciting news. But then, I thought people would get excited when Shoemaker-Levy disintegrated and impacted Jupiter back in 1994. Ho-hum. Didn’t happen here. Didn’t affect me so no big deal. But what if, just what if, that little red planet does start to meander on over here? Could it possibly affect us and make some sort of interruption in our daily lives?

The Lion of Judah Returns

Well, my regular readers know the answer to that one. I am a fan of Velikovsky, Anthony Larson and the alternative view of cosmology known as the Electric Universe. I subscribe to the theory that at one point in time in the recent history of the world, approximately 747 BC to 687 BC, the planet Mars menaced our planet, caused great destruction and terrified the people of the earth.

I also believe something similar will happen again as part of the prophesied destruction of the latter days, just prior to the return of the Lord Jesus Christ. Only this time, instead of coming as the Babe of Bethlehem in mildness and meekness, he will come as the Lion of Judah, full of fierceness and vengeance. The Lion of Judah will open the book and loose the seven seals.

The Lord uses natural means to accomplish his great designs. The destruction of the last days is not without purpose or meaning. We have lived in cosmological peace for so many thousands of years that we are totally complacent about the possibility of catastrophic calamities coming to the earth again. I am certain good people will return to God in times of distress that now approach.

Seeking After a Sign

And now to Denver’s claim that we may know by this sign that he has faithfully taught the words the Lord has given him. I confess that when I first read that I thought of the scriptural phrase, “It is a wicked and adulterous generation that seeketh after a sign.” Why should we need a sign to know if Denver was fulfilling his assignment from the Lord? Can’t we just ask him directly?

The answer, of course, is that you can and should ask the Lord directly to know for yourself if what Denver has taught is the truth. And not just generally overall, but even about specific things that he has shared. The same applies to everything we hear from our prophets and apostles. We should ask the Lord if what they have taught is true. We do not believe in prophetic infallibility.

In this case, because so many people have ignored or mocked Denver, I suspect the man feels that he has not been effective in fulfilling his assignment. This sign may not come in the next few years. It may not come until many years from now. Somehow, between now and then, like in the Book of Mormon, I suspect Denver will be even more persecuted by those who are in power.

Denver has no Spokesman

Denver has written that nobody speaks for him. I can’t help it if I come up second in a Google search for Denver Snuffer. I’ve only written a few essays in an effort to understand what I’ve read over the past year. That’s how I learn. I read, I write, I share. You read, you comment and I adjust my thinking as necessary. You don’t know how much I appreciate dissenting viewpoints.

I don’t mind you telling me I’m investing an inordinate amount of time in studying the writings of Denver Snuffer. Really I’m not – maybe just a few hundred hours over the past year. Like you, I have a regular life in which I work, I travel, I spend time with my family and I fulfill my calling for the Stake Presidency. It’s just that I’ve gotten so much satisfaction out of Denver’s books.

Like I said at the beginning, Denver doesn’t need anyone to defend him. I hope I’m not causing him distress by all these essays on his books. I have a half dozen more planned along with a whole bunch of other stuff that the Lord keeps giving me. Do you get like that when you write – you just can’t stop because the more you write, the more the ideas flow for future articles?

An Entirely Different Subject

I’d like to conclude this little essay with a request for some help in understanding a website and book I ran across a few years ago. The website is Elliaison.org and the book is The Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I suppose it’s not entirely unrelated since what Denver has invited us to do is to converse with the Lord through the veil. Has anybody else dealt with these people?

Has anybody else read it? If so, what did you think of it? I thought about doing a book review but still need to finish a couple of others in the queue, most notably Mel Fish’s Healing the Inner Self. The book seems to be based on what these folks have learned from Denver’s first book and then shortened it down to the point where you can ask the Lord three specific direct questions.

In prayer, ask “Have I made my calling and election sure? Wait for a response. If negative, ask “May I have your promise that I will be exalted and receive all the blessings of eternal life right now?” If negative, ask, “What do I need to ‘become’ to be worthy of this promise?” Wait for it… The idea is that this is supposed to be the quickest way to having your calling and election sure.

Bear Witness of Parting the Veil

There’s a lot more that goes before and after that little paragraph found on page 61 of the book. I did some fasting and temple preparation about a year ago and put it to the test. What I got was “No, No, and You need more time.” I found it kind of frustrating. “Time for what?” I asked. No answer. “Seasoning” was all I could come up with. Sigh. I put the book aside until recently.

I’m thinking of reading Denver’s first book again. This will probably make the fifth time. I wish I could talk to the man personally. I’ll bet many people have chatted with him about this in the past. But I’m a Southern California boy and he’s in Salt Lake so there you go. I get up to SLC about once or twice a year and usually only because I’m passing through to Brigham or Logan.

I’m convinced we can and should have sacred spiritual experiences where we are able to part the veil, receive instruction from divine messengers and be allowed to bear witness that this is what the Lord wants us to do. I’ve had enough encounters with the dark spirits in my life. How I long for the further light and knowledge that comes from conversing with the Lord through the veil.

38 thoughts on “A New Star Will Soon Shine Forth”

  1. I just returned from the IEEE Aerospace conference and I can assure you that several who are involved in the current Mars Space Lab mission, some who plan future Mars missions, an Astronaut who is planning a 500 day private sector Mars mission and a Cosmonaut who spent a year on the Space Station aren’t talking about anything like this. So I have strong doubts about this literal star speculation.

    I don’t know enough about Denver’s entry into his spiritual epiphany and what happened after that to speak accurately about him specifically. Are you aware of him having any quaking experiences like D&C 85:6 or 3 Nephi 11:3? Out of body or journeying experiences?

    I had a 7 year long kundalini awakening and as a result I now coach other mystics and sometimes the psychotherapists who help them. So I will guess for you what might be going on here.

    Some of what you’ve previously posted leads me to conclude that he speaks some truth of a divine mystic origin but he is so verbosely mingled in LDS theology that it is cryptic and muddled as if he is still struggling to understand what he is being given and therefore at the beginning of his enlightenment meaning he has not yet received his spiritual gifts of communication. Those further along tend to humbly offer very clear, concise and profound messages.

    Many, many mystics are now talking about a very significant new change that is in the process of occurring and it is being joyfully welcomed! If this mystic speak were interrupted through an LDS lens it would likely be seen as the second coming but the star is not an astrological body it is a symbol of the divine (more specifically let’s say the divine concept of Christ) beginning to permeate human kind at an accelerating pace. Importantly the star comes from the East because the divine is engaged more easily via. eastern esoteric methods, If that isn’t the second coming, what is?

    1. Hi Howard. Thanks for stopping by. Not sure what the opinions of attendants or presenters at the IEEE Aerospace conference have to do with the appearance of a new star. As I said in the essay, scientists and astronomers aren’t going to see this thing any sooner than any of us. The whole world will be amazed when it happens. There will be no advance warning, other than perhaps a few hours of higher neutrino emissions as documented at the appearance of SN1987A.

      I am convinced that the new star we’re talking about here is literal. In my mind, there are too many prophecies in the scriptures referring to signs in the heavens for it to be otherwise. I can’t answer your questions about Denver’s quaking experiences or out of body journeying experiences. Perhaps you can ask him directly. He takes and answers questions on his blog. I confess I was intrigued by your references to quaking experiences. I looked them up. Thanks for sharing them.

      I also know nothing of Kundalini Awakenings but spent a few moments in Wikipedia reading about them. Thanks for sharing. I am now enlightened. Perhaps that is my problem in relating to your last two paragraphs. I am way too Westernized and left-brained in my thinking. When I pray or meditate, I feel like I am having a conversation with God, not a mystical experience. I tend to verbalize my feelings, especially when I reduce to writing what I feel the Lord has given me in prayer. As far as I know, I’ve never had a mystical or out-of-body experience.

      As I said in my essay, Denver doesn’t need me to defend him. Your statement that what he writes is cryptic or muddled doesn’t ring true with me. I find his writings to be clear and easily understood, especially if I ponder them after prayer. Tell me which of his books you have read. To claim that a man who has published eight books is at the beginning of understanding his spiritual gift of communication seems a little absurd to me. I find Denver’s writings to be extremely profound, and have come to appreciate his verbosity to help me understand things.

      As you can tell, I disagree with your statement that the star is not an astrological body. The Second Coming of the Savior is a literal event. He will come in the clouds with glory. In other words he will be accompanied by the trumpets of angels and great displays of power in the heavens that will simply astound the whole world. The Star is a harbinger or a sign. It is one of the earlier things to occur in the events of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. It will be a very literal thing that the entire world will see. You will read it in the headlines. Everyone will be talking about it. The whole world will wonder what it means. It is a literal event, not mystical.

  2. The folks on LDSfreedom forum have been arguing about and discussing Denver Snuffer for several years. There are also many that are part of the Elliaison group. They have even quoted and discussed your recent blog entry on Denver. You wouldn’t find it on a google search. You have to become part of their secret combination to view that part of the site.

    1. Hi CCM. I watch where the viewers come from. I think I joined the LDS Freedom Forum but you’re right. I can’t get into the threads that link here. I also get a lot of readers from AVOW – Another Voice of Warning – which requires payment to read. I just don’t have time to hang out on a forum. There are so many things I want to write lately that even when I’m busy at work, my mind is thinking about the next essay or the good comments I get from folks like you. Love your comment. Gave me a laugh. Thanks for stopping by. Always appreciate responses from readers.

      1. From what I’ve read on AVOW tonight, those folks are largely ragingly anti-Denver, and seem to come over here for the shock value or something. (You know, to show each other how horrible and apostate this site is.)

        The heavenly gift forum on LDSFF is the most peaceful of any of the forums – and, yes, you have to have permission to join. The people who tried to discuss some of the teachings of DS got tired of having each thread turn into a combination of bashing Denver and defending themselves against cries of “apostasy”, “wolves in sheep’s clothing”, and several other negative labels/epithets. The owner of the forum solved the problem by allowing one of his moderators to create a private forum with strict rules.

        The book you mentioned in connection with Elliaison is a short read and, if I recall, is mostly a collection of scriptures. I like the book well enough. For those beginning the search, it is an excellent book. Elliaison people are totally and completely independent of Denver Snuffer, though the gist of the message is the same: Come unto Christ in the flesh (they also, as you noted, include having one’s calling and election made sure).

        My “qualifications” for what I’ve written are that I am a member of all of the forums I mentioned in this post.

      2. Thank you Toni. I always enjoy visiting your site each time you leave a comment or visit here. You have fascinating things to say there. I appreciate the insight into the other forums and why there are so many who link here. I receive the majority of new visitors from LDSBlogs (the Bloggernacle) and various Google searches. All are welcome. As I have written many times, I don’t mind opposing viewpoints. My objective is to learn from others. Thanks to all for sharing and to you Toni for linking us back to your website.

  3. One question I have that comes to mind is, if this sign that Denver gives is scriptural, then how is it a sign of Denver’s authenticity? Shouldn’t it be a sign of the scripture’s authenticity instead?

    1. Hi Bryan. Great Question. I just asked him. We’ll see if he responds. Here’s what I asked: “Hi Denver. You wrote, ‘You may also know by that sign that He has given to me the words I have faithfully taught as His servant.’ I have long been convinced that the appearance of a new star at the beginning of the Second Advent of the Savior is part of our doctrine. So when it appears, to me it will be fulfillment of prophecy and a sign of the authenticity of Zechariah (14:7) as a servant of the Lord. Would you care to elaborate how it is also a sign of your authenticity as a servant of the Lord? Why would we need a sign? Can’t we just ask the Lord if what you have shared is from Him?”

      1. And his response (I assume he provided it for public consumption even though it was in a private email). I had expected him to post it on his blog where I left it on the post about the sign:

        The “Sign” is not meant to be understood until it appears. When it does those few words will take on a great deal more meaning than people are able to see at the present. For the present it is best left as the brief statement that I’ve put onto the blog.

        Messengers are not as important as messages. Even the sign is intended to ratify the message alone. As always I’m incidental.

        The answer is “yes” to whether someone can know the truth of any matter by the Spirit, as Moroni 10:5 promises.

        Sometimes I wish everything I’ve done or written could have been done anonymously, but an authentic message requires an identifiable messenger. Even a reluctant one.

        Denver Snuffer

      2. Wow, thanks for that, Tim. I didn’t think he replied to personal email. Anyhow, the answer did clarify. Also, he didn’t really say that the sign would come soon, just that His coming would be soon after the sign.

    1. One of my favorite science / astronomy pundits is Phil Plait of Bad Astronomy. He used to work for NASA. He is a hoot to read and extremely knowledgeable. But he was also president of the James Randi foundation for skeptics. I love to read his stuff because he keeps me grounded about how most of the scientific world sees things that we see differently in the scriptures. Thanks again for adding to the dialog.

    1. Indeed. One of the most amazing claims I have ever read. Can’t wait to see reality unfold. In the meantime, we go about our lives with our loved ones, engaged in work, school, play and life. So many are talking about big changes coming. There is always change coming. A new star will be exciting, but what will it change?

  4. Tim,
    Spiritually induced delusions are used by the Holy Spirit as an intermediate teaching method. Joseph experienced them accounting for much of the weirdness in the JS story and your friend may well be experiencing them, I’ve been there and so have many I know and coach. They are not delusions of the mentally ill which only respond to drugs. Someone with spiritually induced delusions can literally be talked out of them by one who knows what they are doing or left alone they will eventually stop on their own when the lessons are finished but sometimes this takes years. They serve an important purpose allowing the Spirit to use your mind to put you through simulated training that appears real to the one who is living the delusions, of course it doesn’t appear real to others around them. There are a number of important uses for instance to teach anger, fear and ego reduction. We all fear loss of credibility, ego reduction is taught by the Spirit by gaining your cooperation in the literal destruction of your social credibility, you survive it as did the treasure hunting Joseph. It can be an early part of calling and election made sure testing. There is often truth woven into these training delusions but the truth is found in symbolism not literalness.

    1. I appreciate your visit and your comments but need your help Howard. I read your words and understand them, but I don’t comprehend them. Have you got a website I can visit where you share more of your world, which is surely different from mine? I’m not familiar with spiritually induced delusions. To me, delusions are a bad thing, meaning a disconnect with reality. You refer to coaching people. What skill do you coach? Again, have you got a website where I can read more about your techniques, methods or goals? I think I get what you’re saying in your last line about symbolism versus literalism. I’ve read enough of the scriptures to understand that there is a lot of symbolism there that can be confusing to the Western way of thinking. Please don’t think I’m being critical – just trying to understand your way of thinking since you took the time and trouble to read and comment here on my blog. Training delusions – what does that mean?

    2. This comment is in response to Howard’s description of “spiritually induced delusions” being used by the Holy Spirit as an intermediary teaching method that functions as a paradigm-busting “training simulation” that may impair your social credibility. I could not have said it better; in fact, I have not known how to describe this process that I and another person I know have gone through. Since the “delusions” are induced and carried out by the Holy Spirit, meaning the Spirit of the Lord, I question whether an outside individual could influence them. Mind commenced when I began truly seeking the Lord and had the effect of shattering the illusions, eg. false doctrines that we have been taught in the church, ie the teachings of men mingled with scripture and opening my mind to truths which your average LDS won’t begin to consider. It was difficult to go through and to interpret, but I appreciate Howard sharing because, quite honestly, the few with whom my friend and I have shared have considered us Loco (at best.) it’s been essentially a crash course to bring us up to speed so that we can a) perform our missions and b) prepare us for the coming changes. Thank you for sharing and discussing.

  5. Tim,
    Sorry no website.

    The Joseph Smith story has no western equivalent or parallel, he sets the western standard but there are eastern equivalents that explain the JS story warts and all. The first is kundalini I won’t explain it here because you can easily Google “spontaneous kundalini” ignore all the new age hype and follow the information trail relating to experiences that are more closely related to those originally described in ancient Sanskrit scriptures.

    The second is shamanic initiation, once you understand shamanism there is little doubt Joseph was a shaman but you will not find it easy to learn about shamanism. Shaman exist as a very small % of the population scattered all over the globe so their experiences vary greatly and therefore is not easily studied. Most studies focus on primitive tribal peoples but little of this is transferable to Joseph. So I will describe some of it here. Many shamanic initiations have 5 major themes interwoven with many more minor themes: Contact with spirits and the spirit world. Journeying, this is an out-of-body experience but quite different than the typical, much more like the way Brigham Young described how spirits move from place to place by mentally willing it. Learning to spiritually cure potentially life threatening illnesses. An “accent above all things” which is often becoming one with deity and may include a Gethsemane type realization. A “decent below all things” which is a delusional ego death experience.

    Some die during and as a result of this initiation, some remain in it as practicing shaman and some find their way through the maze to eventually graduate from it. Most take the common path and are said to enjoy using the power of knowledgable dark spirits in exchange for doing their bidding. But there is a second less chosen path that leads to the light, to God, this is the path Joseph chose upon encountering the darkness preceding the first vision.

  6. People who are going through these experiences tend to get stuck mostly because they resist various parts of it so we talk about it and having been through it I use my personal experience and my experience with others to help them get unstuck or help them find a way out of the delusions.

  7. Btw, the quaking spiritual experiences described in D&C 85:6 and 3 Nephi 11:3 is a very good description of a kundalini awakening. Feel free to ask questions or to contact me by email or I’d be happy to meet you for lunch, I live in T.O.

  8. I’m trying Howard, really I am. Maybe we should take our dialog private, mainly because it seems to have nothing to do with the essay, which was drawing attention to Denver Snuffer’s post on his blog last week that a new star will appear when the Lord returns. Here are some phrases you use that I had to look up or think about before I could respond intelligently:

    The “warts” of the Joseph Smith story – Not sure what warts you are referring to or what part of the Joseph Smith story in particular has warts. Are we talking First Vision only, subsequent visits by the angel Moroni, revelations received in the presence of others, Joseph’s personal failures in business, his participation in polygamy and polyandry or what exactly?

    Spontaneous Kundalini -OK, I have read even more on this from the first time you brought it up. For many people, it seems the experience is negative, causes them to feel physically ill, in distress, great anxiety and often in physical pain. Not a pleasant yoga meditative experience. Some people mention seeing spirits, unhappy ones, upon awakening suddenly. I have experience with this and would be happy to dialog more with you about this in a non-public setting.

    Sanskrit scriptures – So from what I read, these are scriptures for the Hindu religion – the Vedas, the Bhagavad Gita and other Hindu texts. I have heard of them, but have never read or studied them. You are obviously more familiar with them than I. Do you study them regularly?

    Shamanic initiation – Everything I read about this indicates that it is all about suffering and overcoming adversity – the “wounded healer” who suffers trauma and lives to help others through their pain. True Shamans are born, not made or taught. They come into this life to help people deal with death, pain, the underworld and evil spirits. This doesn’t sound all that uplifting to me. Have I mischaracterized it? Are you saying Denver is a Shaman? Joseph Smith?

    Shamanism – From Wikipedia: “Shamanism is a practice that involves a practitioner reaching altered states of consciousness in order to encounter and interact with the spirit world. A shaman is a person regarded as having access to, and influence in, the world of benevolent and malevolent spirits, who typically enters into a trance state during a ritual, and practices divination and healing.” It apparently comes from the religious practices of the Turks and the Mongols. Too much of what I read caused me to conflate Shamanism with Witchcraft, voodoo and the occult.

    Contacts with Spirits – There is a rich history in Mormonism of contact with those in the Spirit world. We hold in high esteem those who are “spiritual” in our church, meaning, they have greater contact with the divine spirit than we do. Joseph Smith and others from our early history who had open visions or related dreams that taught, especially about the future, are regarded well. However, in our modern church, those who make similar claims of having seen visions or communicated with those in the spirit world are looked upon with skepticism. Just sayin…

    Journeying out-of-body – Although I know this is a part of our history (Nephi taken to the high mountain for example), I have never had this experience. I had read accounts of many others who have, especially those who relate or publish their near-death experiences. I’ll bet most people in our church would find it frightful to consider even though we have references in the New Testament by Paul – “whether in the body or out I cannot tell…” Have you journeyed out of your body? If so, is it something you do regularly, can control and can say it has a purpose?

    Spiritually cure life threatening illnesses – We believe in priesthood blessings that are effective according to our faith – both by the one administering the blessing and the one receiving it.

    “Accent above all things” (I think you mean ascent) – Ephesians 4:10 refers to the Savior having ascended above all things. Are you saying that this can be a common experience for mortal man?

    A Gethsemane type realization – Not sure what you mean by “realization” other than perhaps something like what Elder David B. Haight related to us in General Conference (Oct 1989).

    “Decent below all things” (Again, I think you mean descent) – This makes me think of the scripture in which the Lord said he descended below all things in order to comprehend all things. I have some personal thoughts about this and specifically what happened to the Savior in the Garden of Gethsemane revealed to me many years ago. I shared them on my blog in this essay:


    Delusional ego death experience – OK, I confess I was shocked when I looked this one up. I have had this experience. I chalked it up to the influence of evil spirits felt nearby. If you want, we can have that offline dialog about my recent weeklong migraine, my two trips to the ER and the feelings of paranoia and anxiety that came all because I thought I saw a couple of evil spirits. The feelings of death were unmistakable. I felt what they felt – death of all things happy and lovely. All they felt was sorrow, pain, misery and a desire to inhabit someone else’s body for a while. This is way too weird to keep in a public discussion. We can talk more offline.

    “Some die during and as a result of this initiation” – And this is something you encourage others to seek for? Why in the world would anyone want to become a Shaman? It all seems like a false religion – Satan’s counterfeit to the true ways of God – to seek enlightenment through prayer, study and meditation on the things that lead us to love and peace – not pain, sorrow and death.

    “Enjoy the power of knowledgeable dark spirits in exchange for doing their bidding” – This doesn’t sound good. I don’t want something like this, do you? I want nothing to do with dark spirits. We are taught in our culture to stay away from things and places that harbor the dark spirits. We desire to bring light and uplifting happy thoughts into our lives. Why in the world would anyone want to have anything to do with dark spirits except to help set them free from their prison through proxy ordinances for them in the temple and teaching them to repent?

    “The path Joseph chose upon encountering the darkness preceding the First Vision” – Joseph was an inexperienced 14-year old boy exercising sufficient faith to rend the heavens. Yes, he was foreordained to his special mission and thus had power from before he was born to deal with the adversary who tried to destroy him. I believe his account in which he said he was about to sink into sudden destruction to this unseen being from the other world who had such marvelous power. What choice did he have? He called upon God in greater prayer to seek deliverance.

    Getting unstuck – find a way out of delusions – The only thing I could find about his on a Google Search had to do with Dream Yoga, a subject about which I have no knowledge or experience. But I gotta ask: what delusions are we talking about here? Are you saying that our daily religious practices of prayer and gospel study are delusional? Are you suggesting that our worship practices each Sunday are not the way to happiness? If so, I think instead of referring to being stuck, we call it “enduring to the end in righteousness.” Care to elaborate more?

    “I’d be happy to meet you for lunch, I live in T.O.” – I’m interested, but you’ve got to convince me you’re not some weird wacko. I assume you’re LDS, but my gosh, you talk about stuff that I’ve never heard or read before – certainly not a part of my traditional orthodox Mormon heritage. Tell me more about yourself and how we can help each other in a private email: tmalonemcse@gmail.com. And hey, for anyone else that reads this, what do you think? Should I meet with Howard to learn more about Spontaneous Kundalini awakenings?

  9. And this is something you encourage others to seek for? No! I don’t! I don’t want something like this, do you? No! I rejected it and found the path that leads to God. What choice did he have? He called upon God in greater prayer to seek deliverance.. He had the choice to NOT call upon God for deliverance! Are you suggesting that our worship practices each Sunday are not the way to happiness? No. Care to elaborate more? Sure I’ll send you an email in a day or two addressing the topics and questions in your last comment.

  10. Btw, it is common to encounter dark spirits first when the veil thins because they do not respect agency so you must willfully choose Christ in order to switch paths. I’ve never heard of anyone encountering the God side first.

    1. Yep. You’re not the first to advise me of that. And from experience, I can tell you your observation has merit. My issue in dealing with evil spirits is the “freak-out” or “fear” issue that comes from years of being ingrained by others – well-meaning teachers, parents and others – who warn us to stay way from even discussing the idea that evil spirits may be a factor in our lives. You know, the “head stuck in the sand” types who run around covering their ears singing “la-la-la-la-la” or repeating “I can’t hear you” over and over when the subject comes up. I have had many offline dialogs on the subject and have learned that some have the ability to carry on regular conversations with evil or “stuck / unclean” spirits and help them out, so to speak.

      And for anyone interested, Howard and I have gone offline to see if we can come to a better understanding of translating what I call spirituality with what he seems to term Shamanism.

  11. Tim, First time to your site. I am intrigued by Denver and will do some research on him and his writings. I know others that have claimed to have been visited and given light and knowledge to share with the world. They claimed to have a very strong testimony of Christ – The church – and the brethren. Thanks for sharing.. i’m going to look around for a bit on your site.

  12. Tim
    Denver’s post got a lot of attention in a private discussion group I belong to. So you’re not alone, as has already been stated by members of the LDSFF (another private discussion group). So there are others that have read all of Denver’s materials and take him as the real deal. Probably still a relatively small group but they have similar feelings as you do.

    For me his post is quite significant. It parallels Joseph Smith’s statement “then will appear one grand sign of the Son of Man in heaven. But what will the world do? They will say it is a planet, a comet, etc. But the Son of Man, which will be as the light of the morning cometh out of the east”. (April 6, 1843.) DHC 5:336-337.

    So to me there is no reason not to think the star can’t be a comet. The world will say it is a comet because it is a comet. Denver says the world will be troubled by its meaning. What “meaning” can trouble the world? One thought (just a thought) is that if a comet was on a collision course with the earth (or Mars interesting enough), that would trouble most of us. But be what it may, we’ll know the sign when it happens if we have eyes to recognize.

    Next, Denver uses it as a sign for him being a servant (the definition of a Servant who the Lord says “whether by my voice of the voice of my servant it is the same). Denver has never made such a statement about himself before. He has always said he is a teacher as prescribed in the D&C. But now he is saying something more. A servant called as Denver has now claimed to be, must come with signs or witnesses. Joseph Smith obtained witnesses, Jesus had signs of healing, Moses brought forth plagues, Elijah brought down fire from heaven, Lehi receive the Liahona. This is Denver’s first sign. He has not brought forth any new book so he has no need of witnesses. This is unlike others who make claims, such as Christopher Namelka who claims to be the reincarnated Hyrum Smith and claims to have translated the sealed portion of the Gold plates as well as the Book of Lehi. The books are published for reading consumption. But Christopher has not presented signs or witnesses. (You didn’t mention Christopher in you list of far-out people, if you haven’t heard of Christopher, you can Google him; you might find it interesting).

    BTW, just found your blog and started reading it. I like your approach and even-handedness along with being outside traditional views while still being in the traditional church. That scenario may be harder to realize as time goes on. Your post about Melvin Fisher is an example. Other faith-abiding bloggers I know have been disfellowedshipped or censured in church for what they have said.

  13. Tim, you seem like a nice guy — open minded; willing to listen. Just be careful not to keep your mind so open that people can dump their trash in it.

    1. Thanks Jack. Good advice. And I do get lots of private emails from people with all kinds of weird ideas about how they think things are. I don’t mind entertaining their ideas. Makes for stimulating intellectual conversaton. Most folks are very nice and sincere. There are a few deluded crackpots. Some of them are pretty smart and good in their persuasive abilities. That’s why I’m grateful to have the scriptures, the words of modern prophets and especially the gift of the Holy Ghost to help me sort out truth from error. What I discover is there is a lot of truth out there, either mis-worded or slightly mixed with a few untruths to skew it just enough to make it not useful. One of the worst is the continued idea of reincarnation re-branded “eternal lives.” I have lots of conversations with people about past lives. If only they understood the real source of this idea. My, how easy it is to get off topic. I thought this post would be a simple commentary on Denver’s declaration that a new star will appear when the Savior is about to return. It’s amazing how many people fight this idea.

  14. Unless I am mistaken, Zechariah does not specifically state a star is a harbinger of the Lord’s return; thus Denver Snuffer has made a prediction which involves new information that cannot be derived directly from the scriptures; even Joseph Smith’s statement, cited by John C, is not so specific. One may also note that the sign Snuffer proffers will come too late to do anything about it should one disbelieve him.

    Now would be an excellent time for them who have once been enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift and the powers of the world to come, to repent and cry mightily unto the Lord that they may once again be filled with fire, light, charity, and that joy which is indescribable and full of glory, that they may serve the Lord in health and wholeness, and bring souls unto Christ.

  15. Unless I am mistaken, Zechariah does not specifically state a star is a harbinger of the Lord’s return; thus Denver Snuffer has made a prediction which involves new information that cannot be derived directly from the scriptures; even Joseph Smith’s statement, cited by John C, is not so specific. One may also note that the sign Snuffer proffers will come too late to do anything about it should one disbelieve him.

    Now would be an excellent time for them who have once been enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift and the powers of the world to come, to repent and cry mightily unto the Lord that they may once again be filled with fire, light, charity, and that joy which is indescribable and full of glory, that they may serve the Lord in health and wholeness, and bring souls unto Christ.

    1. Howard and I continue our dialog. I am learning much. He has been very open and helpful. Have I come to a better understanding of Shamanism compared to spirituality? All I can say is I’m grateful to have been introduced to this new world of the wounded healer. All I had ever known about Shamanism before was from the kid who played Ed on Northern Exposure who wanted to be a Shaman. Wow, that was twenty years ago. Anyway, I have ordered the book, Fools Crow: Wisdom and Power from Amazon. Should arrive tomorrow. Don’t know if you would consider him a Shaman, but from what I’ve read, this native American healer had some amazing wisdom about how to be a conduit for the spirit.

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  17. I don’t have time to read all the comments, but generally speaking, the calling & election (C&E) doctrine is well known in certain circles; I think the issue for any broad discussion is to consider the preliminary steps. Jumping to C&E is the graduate course, when most people are still in high-school. I’m not trying to under value anyones commitment, etc. It’s just that Jacob’s ladder has steps. The Fullness, entering into the “rest” of the Lord, is the final step. The place to start, in my opinion, is first to understand what it means to be Born of the Spirit. We are given authority to baptize with water; the Lord performs the the Baptism of fire and the holy ghost. The doctrine is more or less hidden today. McConkie put all the scripture references under Baptism, Holy Ghost; that’s where one needs to start. C&E is the end-game. The 3-questions are reasonable; however, the answer, for most people will be that you’re not ready; first things first. If you want to be initiated into the mysteries, start with the first steps; there is a great mystery here contained in Faith, Repentance, and Baptism for the Remission of Sin. Find out first how to have your sins remitted through the Lord’s Baptism of fire and the HG; then you are in the straight and narrow path leading to C&E. If someone has already covered this aspect of the path to receiving greater light & knowledge, I do beg your pardon.

    1. Thanks Donald. Great comments. And I always appreciate when someone leaves a link back to their blog where I can read more about them. You are spot on that so many of us need to focus on the first steps – receiving the Holy Ghost, the Baptism of Fire. Being Born of the Spirit is crucial to coming unto Christ.

  18. Tim, I believe that the sign of the Son of Man is nothing more or less that Christ and the host of heaven coming to earth. Of the sign of the Son of man Joseph Smith said:

    They will say it is a planet, a comet, etc. But the Son of Man will come as the sign of the coming of the Son of Man, which will be as the light of the morning cometh out of the east. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 286-87)

    When Joseph says “But the Son of Man will come as the sign of the coming of the Son of Man” what I think he is saying is “the Son of Man will come as the sign”.

    In Joseph Smith Matthew we read:

    And, as I said before, after the tribulation of those days, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken, then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, and then…they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory;

    Now, the question might be asked, if Christ actually comes as the sign, what is the point of having the Sign of the Son of Man? The answer is simple, when the Lord makes the first of his millennial appearances it will as the Bridegroom. He will come not to the world at this time but to his bride, including those who hold keys at Adam-Ondi-Ahman, which of course the world will not be invited to.

    However, the whole world will be privileged to witness his coming as the sign, though they may not understand what it means. In this next quote we can see that Joseph associated the sign of the Son of Man with the coming of the Bridegroom, he says:

    But I shall use my right, and declare that, notwithstanding Mr. Redding may have seen a wonderful appearance in the clouds one morning about sunrise (which is nothing very uncommon in the winter season) he has not seen the sign of the Son of Man, as foretold by Jesus; neither has any man, nor will any man, until after the sun shall have been darkened and the moon bathed in blood; for the Lord hath not shown me any such sign; and as the prophet saith, so it must be—”Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but He revealeth His secret unto His servants the prophets.” (See Amos 3:7.) Therefore, hear this, O earth: The Lord will not come to reign over the righteous, in this world, in 1843, nor until everything for the Bridegroom is ready
    (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 280.)

    In D&C 88:92 we read more about the Bridegroom:

    And angels shall fly through the midst of heaven, crying with a loud voice, sounding the trump of God, saying: Prepare ye, prepare ye, O inhabitants of the earth; for the judgment of our God is come. Behold, and lo, the Bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

    Why this phrase “go ye out to meet him”? Well, it’s because he’s not coming to Salt Lake City and those who have keys will need to be where he’s coming to, Adam-Ondi-Ahman.
    This is also foreshadowed in D&C 190:73-74

    73 That thy church may come forth out of the wilderness of darkness, and shine forth fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners;
    74 And be adorned as a bride for that day when thou shalt unveil the heavens, and cause the mountains to flow down at thy presence, and the valleys to be exalted, the rough places made smooth; that thy glory may fill the earth;

    Orson Pratt tell us what conditions will prevail when the “army with banners” will return, he said:

    “Well then, to return to the prophesying, when the time shall come that the Lord shall waste away this nation, he will give commandment to this people to return and possess their own inheritance which they purchased some forty-four years ago in the state of Missouri”. (Gerald N. Lund, The Coming of the Lord ,110.)

    Now, what happens when all preparations have been made and those holding the keys are in place? We read in D&C 88:93:

    “And immediately there shall appear a great sign in heaven, and all people shall see it together.”

    There you have it, or at least my version of it.

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