“Why did you do this?”
“I felt it was the right thing to do.”
“Did you think about the consequences?”
“Of course, I’ve thought about them for two and a half years.”
“Do you realize what you’ve given up?”
“Actually, I’ve been more focused on what I have gained.”
“What do you mean?”
“I’ve never felt closer to the Lord or more in tune with His spirit.”
“How can you say that? You just resigned from the Lord’s Church.”
“I resigned so I could get baptized with full purpose of heart.”
“But you’ve already been baptized.”
“I was only eight years old at the time. I didn’t know what I was doing.”
All Decisions Have Consequences
“Did you think about how this would affect your family?”
“Yes. I have fasted and prayed about it many, many times.”
“Do you realize you’ve lost your eternal salvation?”
“I disagree. Eternal salvation does not require membership in the LDS Church.”
“How can you say that after all the LDS Church has done for you?”
“Eternal salvation requires acceptance from the Lord and knowledge of His love.”
“And it requires membership in His Church.”
“Yes, I agree. It requires membership in the Church of the Firstborn.”
“But you can only get that through the LDS Church.”
“No. The LDS Church can help prepare you to receive the Lord.”
We Can Receive Christ in Mortality
“Why are you so focused on Christ? Don’t you realize exaltation is to be like Father?”
“The only way back into the presence of the Father is through the Savior.”
“Yes, of course. But what about the temple and the ordinances we receive there?”
“They’re preparatory ordinances. They’re not the real thing. They’re symbolic.”
“What? I’ve never heard of any such thing.”
“Then you haven’t been listening close enough as you participate in the temple.”
“So you’re saying the temple sealing is not binding and not eternal?”
“Not unless it’s sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. That’s all over D&C 132.”
“But you’ve given up your priesthood.”
“That’s not true. The Church doesn’t control priesthood. I received it from my father.”
“But he must have received it from someone back to Peter, James and John.”
“I’m not so sure the Higher Priesthood can be passed from man to man.”
Priesthood Power Not Controlled by Man
“Do you believe the Aaronic Priesthood was restored through John the Baptist?”
“Yes, I do. And I believe that’s the priesthood I received from my father.”
“Then how do you believe one receives the Higher Priesthood?”
“It is received only by hearing the voice of God declare it unto the man.”
“Really? And you’ve heard the voice of God?”
“I have. But I don’t believe I’ve received the higher priesthood yet.”
“This is impossible. You’ve completely lost the spirit of the Lord.”
“Quite the contrary. I feel the spirit of the Lord in greater abundance than ever.”
“Don’t you realize you have taken from your wife the greatest hope of her life?”
“She loses nothing. She has the same opportunity. It requires the Holy Spirit of Promise.”
“This is totally contrary to the teachings of the LDS Church.”
“I understand. But it’s not contrary to what Joseph Smith taught.”
“Are you saying you can prove all these ideas from the teachings of Joseph Smith?”
“Yes, given sufficient time to put the points together in a way you’ll understand.”
“There’s no way. We must rely on the words of the living prophets.”
“Not if they don’t square with the scriptures or the teachings of Joseph Smith.”
“Sometimes you just have to trust they know what they’re talking about.”
“Not when it comes to my eternal salvation. That’s why I study and pray.”
“You’re saying God told you the living prophets have got it wrong?”
“In some very important things, yes, they have got it wrong.”
Deceived By False Prophets
“My friend, I am sorry for you – very, very sorry.”
“Now do you understand why I resigned from the LDS Church?”
“Yes. You have been deceived into believing the ideas of a false prophet.”
“Tell me, how many hours have you spent studying the words of Denver Snuffer?”
“None. And I don’t intend to. I barely have time to read the scriptures and the Ensign.”
“There’s your problem. How can you judge a matter if you don’t study it out?”
“I’ve read enough from others to know I disagree with what he teaches.”
“But you haven’t read, studied and prayed for thousands of hours as I have done.”
“No. Every time I try to listen to one of his talks or read his lectures I get a dark feeling.”
“Then you’re not prepared for what he has written or delivered in his lectures.”
“I know I don’t like what I hear or what I read. He’s not for me. He’s a false prophet.”
“I would be careful about declaring someone a false prophet whom the Lord trusts.”
Apostasy to Listen to Other Messengers
“So Denver is your prophet? You’ve just substituted one prophet for another.”
“I believe Denver is a prophet, a servant of the Lord, and a true messenger.”
“Do you know how blasphemous that sounds?”
“Only to the mind of someone steeped in the traditions of the LDS Church.”
“So that’s why you resigned your membership in the LDS Church?”
“I resigned because the Church Handbook requires I be excommunicated for apostasy.”
“Yes, and rightfully so. You are an apostate. You are leading others astray.”
“I require nobody to believe as I do. I claim the right to share my beliefs.”
“Not in this church you don’t. You teach what the Brethren say or out you go.”
“Can’t you see the beauty of having the doctrine controlled from the top?”
“I could if I knew for certain the leaders spoke with and on behalf of the Lord.”
Millions of People Can’t Be Wrong
“Millions of people can’t be wrong. They all know the prophet speaks with God.”
“We all speak with God, but does he speak for God? What has he prophesied lately?”
“Well, he’s been a little out of it lately. But just you wait. Listen to General Conference.”
“I intend to do so. I enjoy listening to inspired Brethren teach the doctrines of Christ.”
“So you admit the Church is inspired and led by the Lord.”
“I do. I have always felt that way. There are many good men and women in the Church.”
“Then why did you leave it?”
“We’ve been over that. I’ve given my reasons. Do you resent my exercise of agency?”
“I’m simply concerned for your eternal salvation.”
“And I yours. Thank you for your loving concern.”
“I wish there was something I could say to help you.”
“There is. You can always pray for me and my family.”
“I’ll do that. I’ll pray that you’ll be brought back to the light.”
“Thank you my friend. God bless you and your family.”
53 thoughts on “Answers – Because I Keep Getting Asked”
I must admit, I’ve been highly entertained by the comments I’ve read from TBMs on the matter — especially in regard to the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Tim, God bless you. I personally don’t see how you could’ve lost anything if you’ve had the ordinances and ordinations sealed by the Holy Spirit.
I have had countless conversations like this. It’s so sad – the part you wrote about “someone steeped in the traditions of the LDS Church.” We all need to open our eyes and wake up from the insidious lies meant to keep us from having a deep abiding relationship with Christ. There are not a few lies hedging up the way to salvation that the average LDS member has bought lot, stock & barrel. I should know because I did for the first 43 years of my life. Indeed there are countless lies I have had to do mental gymnastics to get my head around. It is worth the effort to correct my beliefs. It allows for a deeper, more meaningful relationship with Christ. That is more important than anything I do in this life.
Amen. What more needs to be said. Let us turn our hearts and minds towards Zion.
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 11:19 PM, Latter-day Commentary – Last Days – Signs
Well thought out.
We have discussed this before, and you even had a blog topic…
But I think the LDS Church made a wrong turn when Elder Bruce R. McConkie gave his infamous BYU talk in 1982. Relegating Jesus Christ to a role of “Elder Brother” was a tragic theological mistake.
How many of us would call a butterfly a caterpillar? Yes, Jesus was our Elder Brother in the premortal realm. But he became the Father or our spiritual rebirth through his great atoning sacrifice.
Also proclaiming as rigid dogma that we must never pray to Jesus renders Alma 36:18 as false doctrine. And why then do still sing the sacrament hymn “In humility our Savior grant thy spirit here we pray?” Our hymns are another form of prayer.
So when Denver, or you, or anyone else teaches that we must seek the second comforter or have some direct communion with the Savior, you are building upon the discredited “sectarian nonsense” of Brother George W. Pace.
Only the 15 Living Oracles are enabled and empowered to commune with Jehovah. That is why they are “special” witnesses.
(Venting over for now)
So, Tim, please do whatever the Lord asks of you.
God bless you,
i will just say your wrong !
…which would also make it “the discredited nonsense of Joseph Smith”, as well, for all the emphasis Joseph put on the subject. But it seems Joseph Smith and his teachings are a liability for many LDS these days.
You will be filled with gratitude for leaving the church the longer you are away. If you continue seeking the Truth you will grow farther and farther away from the orthodoxy and see the obvious errors and doctrines of the devil that the LDS church teaches.
Someday you will receive a powerful witness that the LDS church has been aligned with the great and abominable church since the days of Brigham Young and even before. The LDS church is the most difficult of false churches to get out of with faith because it has so much truth. The problem is that the truth they have (while being much more than many religions) is nowhere near a fulness. The LDS church excommunicates people who receive too much revelation and too great of a testimony because the Truth condemns the LDS church.
I received a powerful witness yesterday to not be baptized among these communities even though what they are doing is God’s work. I received a witness that the time is coming that men will be given the authority to bestow a FULNESS of the Holy Ghost and I will know when to join.
I don’t claim to understand everything but each of us needs to follow the Spirit for ourselves. Each person has an individual plan from God and some of us need to be in certain churches or situations because that is the best way for God to mold us.
I read an Ensign talk recently by Eyring who wrote about prayer and how it can be a two way communication. Then he mentioned that we can trust an answer from the Spirit if it testifies of the Book of Mormon or if it confirms the words of leaders who hold keys over us.
They are the biggest of hypocrites. To encourage that we gain a witness of the Holy Ghost to learn that the Book of Mormon is true, but they say to completely disregard the Holy Ghost if He tells us anything out of harmony with the church. If I was to deny the Spirit that told me that the LDS church is not God’s church I would have to deny that Jesus is the Christ and the Book of Mormon is true. The power of the burning and flowing glory of the Holy Ghost cannot be denied or it would be denying my own Spirit.
Let us learn to see the Lords hand in all things, this must come before we see The Lord. The brother of Jared seeing the Lords hand first is significant for us. God bless all. Don’t judge too harshly for people in or out of the church. God decides when to teach us and I prophesy of a mass exodus from the church in the coming days when God decides to bring His people from bondage. Today is still a day of preparation.
You remark some interesting things. The Lord moves little bit by little bit, sometimes so subtley that me miss it when not alert. There will be more coming, very soon. I Appreciate that you are watching and praying simultaneously. I enjoy your comments.
Thank you Sfort
Early on when I started reading comments on this blog I felt the Spirit reading a comment of yours and knew I had found an elect. I have also been told wonderful things are coming soon and God is preparing many people.
Awesome! On Sep 24, 2014 10:19 PM, “Latter-day Commentary – Last Days – Signs of the
Long time reader, first time commentor. Thank you Tim for sharing with us your insight, testimony on your website. I need to leave my witness here of what I witnessed when Elder Bruce R McConkie gave “Our Relationship with the Lord” March 1982.
I was a BYU student in 1982 and was in attendance at the Marriott Center when Elder McConkie gave his infamous sermon on NOT gaining a personal witness of the Savior.
Brother George Pace, a very well-liked Institute and Religion professor at BYU, had written a newly published book on gaining an Enos-like personal witness and testimony of Jesus Christ. The message in his book was very similar to the popular Stephen F Robinson books that were published and sold to a large and wide audience a decade or so later. Elder McConkie’s sermon was directed at Brother Pace, who was sitting on the stand. Brother Pace under the glaze of all those attended at the Marriott Center, slumped bowed over in his seat with his head in his hands, while Elder McConkie verbally took him down. I give as my witness the negative confusing spirit that was present. I remember as we exited the building after the talk, the mummers of confused students trying to understand and rationalize what we had just witnessed. As I grew further into adulthood I have realized just how over-the-top wicked and cruel Elder McConkie’s behavior was that day. It was cruel what he did to Brother Pace, and it was wicked to have attempted to lead impressionable young adults astray.
Elder McConkie’s son was on faculty at BYU Institute of Religion and IMHO I am sure it galled his father to no end that goofy loveable Brother Pace was far more popular and filled large lecture hall with eager students wanting to hear him talk about “going to the mountain to gain a testimony and a witness of the Savior”; than they did to take his son’s courses. As the Book of Mormon warns, Pride is the primary sin that leads up to greater sin. IMHO Pride is what was behind Elder McConkie’s abominable sin of denying the spirit and the mission of our Savior.
Elder McConkie’s wicked behavior derailed many a testimony that day; gave enemies of the church ammunition to accuse us of not being Christians, and his persecution ruined George Pace’s career; it never really recovered after that sermon. George Pace’s family was affected and it was a sore trial for them to overcome.
My comment does not really have anything to do with your post, but since Elder McConkie’s known persecution of humble Christ-like individuals was noted as part of the conversation, I thought I would add my 2-cents.
I have been thinking on this for some time, how church members are so narrow minded and so much like those of BoM times.
If the BofM is a type of shadow of things to come how will church members know when a Samuel the Lamanite, or Abinadi or John the Baptist or even the Lord?
Of course, each of them would be ignored because they do not come with the proper credentials. Almost put their trust and faith in the holy 15 alliance. I have heard that “will not lead you astray” concept taken all the way down to the bishops espoused by the apostles.
If they will refuse to read and believe and understand the BofM and idolize the “brethern” I guess there is little one can do for them beyond pray for their hearts and minds to be pricked so to feel and hear the whisperings of the still small voice, but only if it does not violate their agency to be dead to the spirit.
Thank you again for plain language that reveals truth and love.
No. You didn’t really think through how your … leaving the church would affect your family.
Ah, but I did. What man can ever understand how a woman thinks, feels or perceives his actions? How many men have been astonished when they think they are providing leadership only to discover those who look to them for leadership see only betrayal? I thought and prayed about this over and over, clearly sensing my actions would be misunderstood, but hoping and praying for support and understanding.
I thought for years and years until the time for thinking was over. The time came for a decision and to act upon that decision, come what may. I did so. I invited my family to join me. It was too much, too soon. That has not changed my love for my family or my desire for their happiness. I know this is difficult. It is a fulfillment of Matt 19:29. I am not the only one who is at odds with their spouse over this message.
you say you don’t belive the priesthood can be passed on from man to man then you say you have the priesthood from your father , seems to me you can’t have it both ways
Hi Rick. My apologies for not being clear. The Aaronic priesthood can be passed from man to man. We have ample evidence of this throughout the Old Testament. It is the Higher Priesthood that can only be received directly from the Lord. This is evidenced several times in the Book of Mormon. You can read more here:
This is the ending of a letter written by Elder Bruce R. McConkie to: (I will not give his name out of respect and privacy – but many will know who it is). This letter can be found online. I hope it’s okay to share. I realize that this will not affect Tim’s decisions to do what he has felt is right for him. I respect his agency to worship as he see’s right. The following is for the consideration of those who might be on the edge of a “faith crises” because of not “following the Lord’s chosen leaders.” As Elder McConkie states, ” If they err then be silent on the point and leave the event in the hands of the Lord. Some day all of us will stand before the judgment bar and be accountable for our teachings.” This is the course of safety.
The Lord’s house is a house of order and those who hold the keys are appointed to proclaim the doctrines.
Now you know that this does not mean that individuals should not do research and make discoveries and write articles. What it does mean is that what they write should be faith promoting and where doctrines are concerned, should be in harmony with that which comes from the head of the Church. And those at the head of the Church have the obligation to teach that which is in harmony with the Standard Works. If they err then be silent on the point and leave the event in the hands of the Lord. Some day all of us will stand before the judgment bar and be accountable for our teachings. And where there have been disagreements the Lord will judge between us. In the meantime if we want to save our own souls we need to strive with all the power we have to be in harmony with the revelations and not to be teaching or promulgating doctrines that suit our fancy.
I advise you to take my counsel on the matters here involved. If I err, that is my problem; but in your case if you single out some of these things and make them the center of your philosophy, and end up being wrong, you will lose your soul. One of the side effects of preaching contrary to what the Brethren preach is to get a spirit of rebellion growing up in your heart. This sort of thing cankers the soul spiritually. It drives people out of the Church. It weakens their faith. All of us need all of the faith and strength and spiritual stability we can get to maintain our positions in the Church and to work out our salvation.
Now, I think I have said enough in this letter so that if you are receptive and pliable, you will get the message. If you are not, rebellion will well up in your heart. I pray for your well-being. I repeat: the door to my office is open. Perhaps I should tell you what one of the very astute and alert General Authorities said to me when I chanced to mention to him the subject of your letter to me. He said: “Oh dear, haven’t we rescued him enough times already.”
Now I hope you will ponder and pray and come to a basic understanding of fundamental things and that unless and until you can on all points, you will remain silent on those where differences exist between you and the Brethren. This is the course of safety. I advise you to pursue it. If you do not, perils lie ahead. It is not too often in this day that any of us are told plainly and bluntly what ought to be. I am taking the liberty of so speaking to you at this time, and become thus a witness against you if you do not take the counsel.
I repeat: I have every good wish for you, pray that the Lord will bless you and hope that things will work out properly and well in your life.
Bruce R. McConkie
Again from McConkie:
And you have never heard one of the First Presidency or the Twelve, who hold the keys of the kingdom, and who are appointed to see that we are not “tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine” (Ephesians 4:14)–you have never heard one of them advocate this excessive zeal that calls for gaining a so-called special and personal relationship with Christ.
You have heard them teach and testify of the ministry and mission of the Lord Jesus, using the most persuasive and powerful language at their command. But never, never at any time have they taught or endorsed the inordinate or intemperate zeal that encourages endless, sometimes day-long prayers, in order to gain a personal relationship with the Savior.
Those who truly love the Lord and who worship the Father in the name of the Son by the power of the Spirit, according to the approved patterns, maintain a reverential barrier between themselves and all the members of the Godhead.
I am well aware that some who have prayed for endless hours feel they have a special and personal relationship with Christ that they never had before. I wonder if this is any or so much different, however, from the feelings of fanatical sectarians who with glassy eyes and fiery tongues assure us they have been saved by grace and are assured of a place with the Lord in a heavenly abode, when in fact they have never even received the fullness of the gospel.
I wonder if it is not part of Lucifer’s system to make people feel they are special friends of Jesus when in fact they are not following the normal and usual pattern of worship found in the true Church.
Let me remind you to stay in the course chartered by the Church. It is the Lord’s Church, and he will not permit it to be led astray. If we take the counsel that comes from the prophets and seers, we will pursue the course that is pleasing to the Lord.
I know that some of the above is up for debate on this web-site. I have be caught-up in it myself.
And these comments from Bruce R. McConkie are from an apostle of the Lord who testified he saw the marks of the nails in the body of our Saviour. He never suggested that every human needs to seek that kind of experience and, in fact, taught that we should concentrate on living the Gospel more than on seeing the Redeemer. That day will come for the faithful.
Christ’s purpose is to break down barriers! I am kind of appalled at this McConkie quote. What about the commandment to pray always, and not faint, to come unto him, to knock, so he can open? Isn’t the point of the temple to walk you through the process of crossing the last barrier between yourself and God? Instead, Elder McConkie says we need approved patterns, normal and usual patterns of worship.
McConkie makes an interesting claim that Satan uses heartfelt prayer to deceive a person. The scriptures teach plainly otherwise — it is Satan who teaches a man *not* to pray.
i’m concerned about Bruce McConkie’s words. i have read this before many times and there is some truth in it and there is also traditions of our fathers in it, so much that the Church felt compelled to re-write a talk from James Faust, i think many of us remember him. you can find information here on it.
this is a great post, but the section titled The Elder Faust Incident is the one of interest in relation to what was posted above.
Elder Faust at the time was not an Apostle, just a budding GA, and gave a talk on the importance of having a personal relationship with the Savior, but it contradicted the above comments that you have posted of McConkie and the Church went in to cover up mode.
this also, makes me question Enos, what about Enos, was it false for him to pray all day and wrestle with the Lord? The letter above is the very reason i am concerned with the Church today. Tim i have never posted but i have been following your blog for over 2 years now, i have been praying for true messengers from my father and i was lead to you, to Denver and to Rock and many others. i have grown closer to the Lord on this path and i’m still seeking further light and knowledge, thank you for all you do, and i pray for you and your sweet wife.
On the other hand….
“The following is for the consideration of those who might be on the edge of a “faith crises” because of not “following the Lord’s chosen leaders.”
I agree Doctorandrose, I am one of those you speak to. What I found was when I had the”crisis of faith”it was because I had not chosen to hear his chosen leaders. This faith crisis lead me to his chosen leaders. I began to find them in the scriptures and particularly the BOM. Then I realized Joseph Smith Jr. was the last “chosen leader” I have come across. D S also delivered a message from the Lord, I believe. His chosen leaders always point to him.It helped my faith crisis and led me away from those who claim to be his (my self included) While doing this I was lead right out of the LDS faith and into the Faith and Hope in Christ. And “HIS” Doctrine found in the BOM. Nowhere else period for me. No more no less.
When we hear truth it is not always what we have come to call “Faith Promoting” but it is truth and it will build faith. I have been so blessed. We have all been. Best to you. David Park.
I had a good visit with my wise father, and he told me “that which you focus on will expand.” You get what you focus on. If all you do is go from one web-site to the next, which bashes “The Brothern” then that attitude (contention and criticism) will expand and lead you right out of the Church. I have found myself spending too much time giving these web-sites my time. The Spirit told me the other day to, “give the Lord’s Chosen Leaders the same time you are giving to these web-sites.
I have learned much here, but feel that I must move on. Our leaders are NOT evil men trying to deceive us. Yes, there maybe problems, but not to the level of leaving and turning against that which has brought so much good to your life. So bye for now.
I enjoyed this from Fiona and Terryl Givens (The Crucible of Doubt)
Doctorandrose2: I assume you know this letter to Eugene England is known around the Bloggernacle as one of the worst cases of abuse of authority in the history of the LDS Church. I’m surprised you brought it up. Can you not see the heavy-handed threats of fear and compulsion throughout the letter?
Do you not understand how poorly this reflected on Elder McConkie when it was released? This so smacks of D&C 121:37 that nobody uses it as a good example of how a general Authority should respond any more. Surely you know this. If not, then be advised. This kind of language is not the way the Lord talks to us.
Yes. I see this. Joseph Smith also tested (heavy hand) people. The Lord also said some heavy handed things to the people (Bread of Life – Speech). He asked if the 12 would also leave Him. The Lord (Church) requires “Hard Things” of us. Is it fair? Life was not fair for the Savior either. To whom shall I turn? To Christ yes! but what of His Chosen Messengers? I am not ready to turn my back on them, even if they ask “hard things,” and have err in their lives. They will be judged for those errors and faults. (The Lord calls them follies.) My job is to stay the course which leads to eternal life. Yes, I know there are problems, but even then…
Yes, dear Tim, your brief answers to these many concerns do indeed paint a picture of what you are becoming, something that is not as good as what you have been. I see Denver Snuffer’s influence on you as not being positive for the most part. A tinge of rebellion is heard in your explanations. I know that you are a good man seeking the best you can find, but the fruits of these choices are a bit sour.
I can imagine how it must feel to have so many people calling your decisions wrong, unwise, and rebellious. I can imagine how you feel about what you are doing. Know that I love and care about you. And know that your perspective is not the only one and that there is still plenty to question about it.
You have a funny way of showing your love- patronizing , condescension and accusations. One gets the feeling you are just getting started
Before I left the church I did not have a “faith crisis”. My faith has never been in a church and neither should your faith be. My faith is simply in whatever God has told me by the power of the Holy Ghost.
People act like you are losing faith if you follow the Spirit away from a group of people in a religion. They do not realize it takes more faith to do this. Please can anyone explain why I should put my faith in a man ever? The first hint of the Spirit leading me away from a man (I don’t care if he has been called a seer, angel, or any other title) I will follow the Spirit of God immediately.
Bruce R McConkie was so convinced he would see Christ after his death because of the titles he had attained and the so called good works that he had done. Too bad he stepped into the spirit world and only saw others like minded who also had never had the faith to meet The Lord.
The strait and narrow way is simply attaining the Holy Ghost, and following the His and only His teachings until He leads you to a personal visitation of the Savior. This is taught plainly by Nephi. This idea that men will lead us to God is a doctrine of the devil.
Tim and others who follow the spirit are not having a “faith crisis” they are being drawn by God to a higher spiritual plane.
Why in the world would Bruce R McConkie think that the church had a “fulness of the gospel”. That is another pernicious lie that has crept into the Latter Day Saint mind. I don’t care if it originated from Joseph Smith himself. The Book of Mormon was given as preparatory and lesser portions of the gospel so that if we love according to it’s words we could then be blessed with the “greater things” promised. If we had a “fulness” there would be no need for anything greater.
This fact alone should tell us the LDS church is not worthy of the higher things and they are not teaching the truths of the Book of Mormon correctly. There has been absolutely no progression towards Zion since the time of Joseph Smith. Now we are nearing the time in history when we will be given the chance to redeem Zion. Wake up! I implore you to quit putting trust in the Brethren who will lead you nowhere higher than your current state. God will continue to call and beckon and His patience is Everlasting but time is short. Oh well I can’t do anything anyways. God can do His own work and He will prove it.
Oh, Steve. Although we have met, you and I have never had that sit-down talk you wanted to have. I would have enjoyed it. I totally “get” that what I am doing and have done scares the crap out of people. It can easily be interpreted as rebellion if you want to see it that way. But rebellion against who (or is it whom)?
My actions are against the Church, Steve, not the Lord. I readily admit I have left the Church because I could no longer accept the efforts of the Church leaders to entice me to think and believe a certain way, when I had and continue to have feelings, promptings and insights from the Lord that go contrary to what I had been taught to believe.
For my good Bishop’s sake, if he still reads my blog, I do not fault him in any way for all his efforts to counsel me over the past year, to get me to see things the way I used to – more orthodox, more traditional. It is best that we part ways. I have changed. I believe differently than I used to believe, especially about things that matter most in eternity.
In some ways, I like Elder McConkie’s letter to Eugene England cited above. It demonstrates how serious a subject this really is. And it is serious. We ought to take it seriously. Our eternal salvation is at stake. But in the end, who are you going to follow – a man, or the Lord? I choose to follow the Lord. It comes down to personal revelation really.
I have not done what I have done – left the church and been baptized – because of Denver Snuffer. I did this because the Lord asked me to do this. I struggled with it. I fought against it. I asked if there was no other way. In the end, I confirmed it as the best course of action for me at this time in my life. It is not for you, nor for my wife, but it is for me.
I thank you for respecting my agency. I know you and many others leave comments here opposing what I have done in an effort to persuade others from following me. And that is good. That means you are passionate about what you believe. Thank God for that. The Lord will bless those who passionately act upon their beliefs in faith.
That’s why missionaries are successful. God needs good missionaries to get the message of the restoration out there. That’s why temple workers are blessed. God needs the temple ordinances given to the faithful members of the church. That’s why good bishops and stake presidents are blessed – God needs them to help the wards and stakes.
Don’t you see? The church is good. it is doing a lot of good. It’s good for a lot of people. It’s just not for me right now. I pray for the leaders of this church. Carol can attest to that. I pray for President Monson and each of the General Authorities who will speak to us in just a few days. I pray for our Bishop and Stake President each night. Carol knows.
But for me, right now, for my spiritual progress, in order for me to be true and faithful to what the Lord has revealed to me, it was best that I part ways with the church. It was only a matter of time before I would have been cast out anyway. My mind was and is made up. I know I am on the right path for me. I already feel different since my baptism.
God bless you Steve and all others out there who have taken the time to read my blog and leave comments of loving concern for my soul. I took a great risk in doing this. It could turn out poorly. My wife could choose to file for divorce. I hope and pray she won’t. I love her and as much as she may not believe this, I truly want her to be happy. I do.
I don’t know how much clearer I can be. In the end, I know I will stand before the Lord. After I kneel and kiss His feet and He bids me to rise, I know I will be able to look Him in the eye, knowing I did as He asked me to do. Now the only question is, are you doing with your life what the Lord has asked of you? If so, God bless us both to do just that.
Thanks Tim. I really do understand your points, and what you have done. As you say, “it’s just not for me.” I will seek the Lord and also follow those evil LDS leaders. Thanks for your testimony. I have learned from you and have grown in knowledge. You have made me think! You woke me up to a different view of history and BOM teachings. In many ways I beleive you are right. I too have spent MUCH time pondering, but I will stay in the Great and Spacious Building. lol
I think what Tim is really trying to tell us is summed up in this picture. http://mormonbible.org/files/2012/07/Mary-Martha-Jesus-Mormon.jpg
And what a beautiful painting it is. Thanks Tom.
What an interesting conglomerate of comments here. It got me to thinking, why on earth are there so many apparent idolaters following this blog in the first place? Surely Tim has not been pandering to the Molly Mormon types in the straight arrow type of conversations and posts.
I have not followed all that long, but what I have seen I have seen Tim leaning to what a body could call rebellion or some such thing. I cannot see where the Straight arrows would be attracted to his writing as it surely must been distasteful to them, unless, they are unsure of where they sit in the first place, looking for someone to support their very own disillusions.
It kinda sorta makes me think of a thief who has been stolen from. No one hates to be stolen from more than thief. It would almost be comical if not so sad the almost rabid attacks by those who would claim to be main liners.
Sorta kinda like the Democrats and Republicans. One is quite calm and docile while the Dems are nasty in the extreme, to the point of being disgusting.
I think on thing common to humankind is the desire to be an individual. He will go to almost any length to be different from all else. He will buy/order a car to his own likes. He will build a house to set it apart from all other houses. He will buy his ties to stand apart from the “suites”. He will chose his beer to different. You can name it actually, he wants to be DIFFERENT in almost everything.
But while wanting to be alone and going to great lengths to different, he wants his children and wife to be like him. He wants friends to be like him and then he wants his community to be like him, until they get to be too much like him, then he will break ranks to once again be different, again.
But there is a jealousy in them when one of their followers break ranks and shows a difference from themselves, before they can make the move themselves.
I sense these who most apposed to Tim doing what he feels to be right for him is matter of jealousy in that they don’t have the courage to stand alone and make the change they wish they dared make.
Surely, those in this spirit are lacking in the spirit of God and it is apparent in how they attack those who are “followers/idol worships” along with them.
I guess that is why some in the past were tossed into furnaces and lions dens or hung on crosses.
Tim has been a master at keeping cool and trying to appease the rabble in their effort to create contention in this small group. He is to be congratulated.
I would suggest that for those of you who are offended by Tim’ choice should just look for other hunting grounds to get your fix.
Good on you Tim. My best to you and Carol. Surely this will bring an end to your long time relationship. It would such a shame that ones idea of right would have to be so strong as to need to separate because of it. I hope and pray pride will not find it’s way into your marriage.
Carol won’t do this. Where would she get another Tim? Behavior is 9/10 of the law. Tim has loving behavior. This manifests itself in relationships, not ideology alone.
Every day I pray for Carol – not that she will be changed, but that she will have the kind of husband she deserves. I have asked a lot of her. I know she is going to feel bad when people at Church ask why her husband is not in Gospel Doctrine class, which I used to substitute.
I will attend Sacrament meeting with her occasionally, but choose not to attend Sunday School or the High Priest’s group any more. I will probably still sing in the choir, attend ward socials and receptions – always a big deal. But we will not let this end our loving relationship.
Yes, it’s possible. I’ve heard of Bishops counseling wives to leave their husbands because they aren’t members of the church, even though such counsel goes totally against the handbook. I will work and pray every day that Carol will feel my love for her in ways she appreciates.
Don’t know why I’m sharing this here – we attended a marriage class together years ago from Emerson Eggerichs on “Love and Respect.” It focuses on the pink / blue thing. Men and women perceive love in very different ways. It was the best marriage seminar I have ever attended.
Thank you Joseph for your comments and thank you SFort for your response. SFort has met Carol. So have many others who read my blog. I have invested thirty-two years in my marriage. I intend it to last forever. I intend it to yet be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise.
First off, thank you for sharing this, Tim. I appreciate your candor, writing ability, and willingness to share. I find it slightly humorous if people are telling you “Millions of people can’t be wrong” and I immediately thought of Elder Nelson’s latest address:
“After World War I, a rather risqué song became popular. In promoting immorality, it vowed that 50 million people cannot be wrong. But in fact, 50 million people can be wrong—totally wrong.” https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/04/let-your-faith-show?lang=eng>>
Granted, he’s talking about immorality, but a numbers game won’t settle anything. A lot more people than our tiny church earnestly in their leader/prophet/institution/church/etc. 🙂
I see peace and love in your writings. Be blessed, my friend.
Log: You’re back. Thank you, my friend. Blessings upon you as well.
I’m not back. 😉
Everything I would ever have to say is implied in this: “All things whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, do ye even so unto them; for this is the law and the prophets.”
Oh boy Tim, some of these folks sure are worried a bit too much about your soul. I wish people would just take care of themselves!
I think anything that draws you closer to our Lord and Savior is just great. In fact, I’ll be joining you in your newfound path this Saturday when I will be baptized in the Lehi/Saratoga Springs area. I cannot wait to join in the celebration that Christ is now offering us. Thank you for your example!
We are all children of our Heavenly Father. He has wept for us, been pained by us, we have brought Him God-like sorrow. And yet His work and His Glory is to bring about the Immortality and Eternal Life of His children. All of us. Is there no doubt we wept over the “son of the morning” and the heavenly spirits that were banished by Elohim, “The Elohim” (plural).
We wept because of the loss of our friends. How could this happen? Even when the “Elohim” are there to teach, treasure us, and to see to our development to be ‘children of the promise’.
So it is possible to make wrong decisions even with an eye on “heavenly beings”.
May I witness and caution that Lucifer — yes that very “Son of the Morning” has his own plan that even Joseph Smith Jr., The Prophet, had to have help by Mighty Michael to detect his deceit.
If I want to see if the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints has any merit — go talk to the 80,000 missionaries that are special emissaries. They will preach Jesus Christ and His Atonement. They do it with power and authority.
If I want to know if the Holy Temple is a temple of truth or a sham then go talk to the Temple President — go talk to the Temple Sealer — ask them if they have Keys or are impostors. Would the spirit shrink or would it be emboldened in the presence of such. Each has to decide.
It have been revealed to me in very literal means, as did the Prophet Joseph, the reality of the unseen world and the cunning, and sometimes bold ways they undermine what the Holy Father is doing.
Yes He (The Father) is working a work amongst the children of men for thus it has been prophesied — but to say that Heavenly Father and the Lord Jesus Christ is laying siege against the Church is ponderous doctrine.
I have studied the words of these men, and with the Holy Spirit to guide, can witness every time they have testified that they have had their “Calling and Election Made Sure”.
Not blatantly, openly and with a shout of acclaim — but quietly, humbly, and with enough tenderness to allow the Holy Ghost to take over the teaching moment.
To all who feel disaffection by the Church, to all who feel the brethren (and sisters) have all gone astray — I pray the Lord’s choicest blessings to go before you and bear you up. I pray the Lord’s merciful and gracious Love to heal your hearts and bring you peace.
He is mighty to save and I am the least of all these on this blog to judge anyone who feels they are doing God’s work.
As I speak to those unseen (seen) spirits who followed Lucifer, and hear some of their regrets, I am cautioned again to take the path slowly.
May we all some day join hands in Zion and sing praise to our God and King and seek to understand each other’s paths — to buoy each other up, to establish Zion (yes even from within the Church) and to share God’s Love in Jesus Christ.
Be careful brothers and sisters for a rebellious spirit is a very powerful spirit and has been the source of much pain and sorrow in the history of our lives.
To think that many tens of thousands of years ago we were all on the same team — and now even among the chosen the splinter groups are everywhere.
Jesus wept for joy at times and He wept for sorrow as well — and we have been the source of both.
…and if you want to know the truth of a Buddhist temple speak to the monk over that temple. If you want to know the truth about UFO’s go to the nearest convention.
If you want to know the truth of extremist Gihad speak to Osama Bin Laden. If you want to know the truth of Catholicism speak to the Pope.
Or if you want to know the Truth you could develop a relationship with God and ask God about it, He just might be a better Source of Truth than a 19 year old brain-washed emissary.
I left two Elders baffled and confused just a few weeks ago. They left facing a faith crisis because of a few questions and they admitted they only “believed” most of what they told me and they didn’t know from the Holy Ghost.
1: opposition to one in authority or dominance
a : open, armed, and usually unsuccessful defiance of or resistance to an established government
b : an instance of such defiance or resistance
If you see more clearly, this hasn’t been Tim. More than anything it was the institution that rebelled against the people who are His church. Tim was not in defiance, he was open and was castigated. Sorry that you have to be told to understand more clearly. If I can show an increase of love to you after this reproval, then I would love to.
Sorry for the delay. I’m afraid that I failed to communicate my thoughts and thus maybe you missed my point.
Rebellion vs. Rebellious Spirit. Similar to affect vs effect.
Enough really. I pray you the strength to follow the spirit within you and the Lord’s most profound blessings to follow you.
I have not accused anyone sfort.
Some people will never be able to understand the choices you have made, no matter how plainly you explain it to them. They have not experienced what you feel by following the truth despite any cost. There are no words to describe what comes from that faith. There is no greater joy then when you have truly pleased God, there is no mistaking it’s source, it does not originate from ourselves. You have placed your faith and trust in him above everyone else, It is required. All flesh will fail you at some point, it is weak. Only the Lord is capable of keeping that trust. His words will never fail if your faith endures to the end. But know this, it will be tested to its very limit, it has to be there is no other way. Nothing that requires anything less is capable producing the faith that is required. Remember always his promise: “I tell you the truth,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God will fail to receive many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternal life.” Luke 18:29-30
I am in awe of your ability to express what so many feel. Yes, there is good in the LDS church…in general, it does not come from the church office building, but rather from the humble members trying to do what they believe is right. It comes from the scriptures, most especially from the Book of Mormon. It comes from the words of Joseph Smith the ONLY Prophet of the LDS church that we know spoke with the Lord. It comes from the prayers and fasting of humble people like yourself who refuse to be led by men, but rather seek to come unto Christ in the way He directed. It comes in seeking for the “further light and truth Father promised to send”, even if that further light and truth should come from some obscure individual crying in the wilderness “Repent and make straight the way of the Lord”.
For 4-5 generations the church has usurped the Doctrine of Christ, found in its simplicity and purity in the words of Nephi and the words of the Savior in the Book of Mormon. The church has erected a modern day tower of Babel on top of the foundation of simplicity, love, and truth laid down by Joseph Smith. That simple truth was expressed in great eloquence and beauty in the words of the Savior Himself, “Behold, this is my Doctrine–whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church. Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.” D&C 10:67-68. I share in your joy and happiness from last Sunday.
God bless you brother Tim.
James Russell Uhl
Everyone has said the main point for years now and the opposite will continue to say the same things for years ahead. The whole crux of the matter is whether the prophecies of Isaiah and Nehpi and the Savior when he visited the Nephites are owned by the LDS faith? The current President of the Church owns all assets, the land of Zion is remiss among the general authorities. It does not exist in the temple ceremony either…just lip service. We are not equal in our eyes.
Did the apostasy happen or didn’t it? It does not matter what one general authority has said or not. The Lord will judge if we know the only true God and Himself, period. Who you follow will not matter. It is clear. There will be no conversion either way by our words on either side. Belief systems are the same as new win into old bottles. The Lord gave this in his sermon on the mount for a reason. There were many steadfast Jews among the listeners. Conversion to the Lord Jesus Christ is personal and is not and never was related to any organization. If the organization helps you to receive that end, then good; but is never reliant upon it.
Those who are seeking the Lord Jesus Christ are to be positively shown glee, period. If your belief system says they are wrong, then it will not affect you one way or the other. So why do you seek to change minds based on your reality? The beauty of the gospel is that it gives peace to the soul. The Church cannot do that. Moving in a trench of belief is your choice, whatever it may be. The gospel is to promote intelligence, saving knowledge and joy. This is the positive news we all seek.
I agree that our words alone will not convert anyone. I have testimony that I have no power of myself to do anything and any true goodness or work of God is done by God and Him alone.
I ponder this often whether God would have me share what the Holy Ghost has taught me. Will it make a difference? I have not been specifically commanded at this point to share anything. Then I look back in my life and find that people’s words (even when I thought they were wrong) often left a small impression and everything worked together for my heart to open to the truth.
Does it benefit me to keep quiet? Does it benefit to speak out? Even moroni (or Mormon) said when he used softness people were disbelieving, when he used boldness people hardened their hearts.
I know that God has not “armed His saints with power” yet
Tim, thank you for publishing answers to these FAQ’s regarding your publicly scrutinized decision.
A book by Fiona and Terryl Givens (Crucible of Doubt) was mentioned above. With all the Deseret Book authors who write books about (teach) the gospel and sell them for money/profit, how does that not qualify as priestcraft?
I’m surprised the presiding brethren allow, let alone the Church owns, a publishing company which permits this type of teaching for profit. The only way to avoid this would be to donate all the profits (no remuneration to the authors) to some other aspects of the Lord’s cause. I believe Denver said all the proceeds of his books, etc., went to the General Missionary fund or the Book of Mormon fund. That would be an example of NOT priestcraft.
Do Fiona and Terryl Givens keep a profit on their book mentioned above?
How many Deseret Book gospel-topic books are there whose authors keep no profit?
Isn’t the commercial also the Babylonian at odds with ZION whose definition is one-ness (temporally and spiritually), righteousness, and no poor?
Why does the Church have so many multi-million dollar commercial enterprises, ventures, investments, and companies, and yet so many poor even among its members (not to mention non-LDS neighbors who are in need)?
Why are the finances of the Church hidden from view, particularly the view of those who pay the tithes and offerings?
Is there an elite priest-class in the Church who receive special blessings and benefits for being in the “inner circle”?
Is there an apostate-hunting department called the Strengthening Church Members Committee (SCMC), or something like that, which investigates and collects information on members for questioning the orthodox/traditional lines? Do they feed this information to local leaders to initiate counseling and/or discipline? Is this what Joseph Smith or the Lord really meant in D&C 123?
These are just a few honest, sincere questions that many members and non-members alike have about the way things are going and where they are headed. If any of these are real problems, why won’t they (those in power) fix them? If these things are wrong, why can’t we repent, change, and turn around?
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